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05/14/2009 06:24:36 PM · #1 |
| So here's the deal. If I can be frank, I have always sucked at Flash photography, and because of this, I have feared it greatly. Well, the wifey just approved me turning the garage into a pseudo-studio so I want to get a dedicated Flash for my Nikon d200. I am looking at the SB-600 but I also want to be able to use it off of the camera with an umbrella set up. Now I have read some stuff on the strobist blog on how to set up lighting and what not, but I am lost as to what features a flash needs for me to do what I want to do with it. Essentially, I am looking for a flash that I can use on the camera, but mainly off the camera, either wired or wireless, but I prefer wireless, with a white umbrella set up. Anyway, I'm really stupid when it comes to using strobes because I have avoided it like the plague. Now I'm really interested in it but I know very little, so... if ya'll could pass on some knowledge it would be greatly appreciated... Thanks in advance... |
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05/14/2009 06:28:29 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by Sirashley:
So here's the deal. If I can be frank, I have always sucked at Flash photography, and because of this, I have feared it greatly. Well, the wifey just approved me turning the garage into a pseudo-studio so I want to get a dedicated Flash for my Nikon d200. I am looking at the SB-600 but I also want to be able to use it off of the camera with an umbrella set up. Now I have read some stuff on the strobist blog on how to set up lighting and what not, but I am lost as to what features a flash needs for me to do what I want to do with it. Essentially, I am looking for a flash that I can use on the camera, but mainly off the camera, either wired or wireless, but I prefer wireless, with a white umbrella set up. Anyway, I'm really stupid when it comes to using strobes because I have avoided it like the plague. Now I'm really interested in it but I know very little, so... if ya'll could pass on some knowledge it would be greatly appreciated... Thanks in advance... |
dude, you're way too hard on yourself, having a question doesn't make you an idiot ;) i'm sure someone around here can help you out |
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05/14/2009 06:29:20 PM · #3 |
No real suggestions from me. I'm a newb with lighting. My method is to pay attention to what others do and then experiment and try to duplicate it. I've had some success and I'm heading in the right direction, but I don't have any of the off-camera flash equipment.
Message edited by author 2009-05-14 22:29:36. |
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05/14/2009 06:56:42 PM · #4 |
Im no expert on this at all.... but you can use the SB800 (and maybe the SB600 as well) wirelessly, using the on camera flash on the D200 as the Master. Here is a tutorial for setting up the SB800 as a slave flash and using your on camera flash as the Master:
Using the SB800 as a slave
Using the SB600 as a slave |
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05/14/2009 07:06:42 PM · #5 |
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05/14/2009 07:10:44 PM · #6 |
Added to bookmarks...thanks :) |
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05/14/2009 07:35:39 PM · #7 |
I cant really help with advice on what flash to get, I'm currently using a Canon 430ex and recently got an Alienbee 400 but haven't had a lot of time to play with the AB yet. But on the flash its self once you get one get one of those foamy manikin heads and throw a hat of some sort on it and start playing with the flash settings, the more you play with it the more you will get used to it and what it can do for you. At one point I used my DPC hat on a tripod which worked out pretty good. OR possibly better yet get your wife to pose for you...
-dave |
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05/14/2009 07:55:38 PM · #8 |
SERIOUSLY spend time at strobist. Dont just browse but read like a bible. The $100.00 for the dvd, especially as a beginner, is worth its weight in gold.
I had the d200 sb600 combo for a while- it was okay. I switched to the d200 sb800 combo for a while, and definately enjoyed it so much more. Now, mostly because of strobist, I CARRY WITH ME a sb800, sb600, sb80dx, and sb28. Anytime that I see a nikon flash for a decent price, its worth the investment. |
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05/14/2009 08:01:03 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by amathiasphoto:
SERIOUSLY spend time at strobist. Dont just browse but read like a bible. The $100.00 for the dvd, especially as a beginner, is worth its weight in gold.
I had the d200 sb600 combo for a while- it was okay. I switched to the d200 sb800 combo for a while, and definately enjoyed it so much more. Now, mostly because of strobist, I CARRY WITH ME a sb800, sb600, sb80dx, and sb28. Anytime that I see a nikon flash for a decent price, its worth the investment. |
My thing with strobist is they don't really mention the sb600, at least not in what I read. I'm trying to figure out where to place it, cause I'm considering the sb28 as well. I'm alittle lost as to what features the flashes offer that I actually need to do what I'm looking to do.
Message edited by author 2009-05-15 00:01:34. |
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05/14/2009 08:04:53 PM · #10 |
Ashley, I can provide some tips, but is ia after midnight in here and I am not thinking straight, give me till tomorrow and I'll post,
g'night,
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05/14/2009 08:08:11 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by AmeedEl-Ghoul:
Ashley, I can provide some tips, but is ia after midnight in here and I am not thinking straight, give me till tomorrow and I'll post,
g'night, |
Go to sleep Dr Ghoul...or before you know it your precious little girl will be tapping you on your shoulder!
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05/14/2009 08:16:32 PM · #12 |
| There was a little bit of flash talk going on over here too. I said it there, but I'd recommend Joe Mcnally's The Hot Shoe Diaries. |
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05/14/2009 08:28:40 PM · #13 |
| Ive heard nothing but good about the hotshoe diaries. Also, I probably honestly like my sb28 over my sb600 (even though the shoe itself is much worse), simply because I feel that it is much easier to control and play with. Used they are about $100 a piece or so. And well worth it. |
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05/14/2009 09:22:25 PM · #14 |
Perhaps I can help a bit.
I've done essentially the same thing. I bought light stands, two white shoot through umbrellas and one black/silver one, several reflectors and a stand, and two SB-600s. I have a D80 and a D90, both of which can control both flashes wirelessly.
The SB-600's are great, and are enough flash for that purpose. The only reason to go for the SB-800 or SB-900 is to have an on camera flash with mastering capability (instead of the built in flash).
I have been able to get nice studio quality lighting from the flashes. I could really use a third though.
They've worked very well in even a field situation, but with some limitations. I have shot a couple of stage productions (several rehearsals actually and one posed set), and I've found the main limitation of Nikon's wireless system is that you can't spread the flashes "too widely". In other words, putting them at the two ends of a very wide stage, I had difficulty with the reliability/getting both flashes to fire. Also, at least in that theatre situation (I haven't tried it in the studio setup), you can't move in front of the umbrella and shoot (at least in the shoot through setup).
That being said, the only other drawback I've found is that it's hard to set up dramatic lighting with the flashes, since you can't see what the lighting is until you shoot. I haven't tried Alienbee's or similar flashes, but they at least have a continuous modeling light which might help in that regard.
You can check out the most recent session I had with these here, to get an idea of the lighting. Though I'm definitely not that experienced yet in lighting setups.
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05/15/2009 06:34:21 AM · #15 |
Ashley, G' morning .. this is me again .. going through my first coffee :)
Your problem is not gear, your problem is you need to know how to light. As simple as that.
Gear is gear, nothing more nothing less, you can use 12 SB900 connected with kickA$$ Bucket-Wizard wireless, using NikonDX3 or whatever its top of the line is, and yet still end up with crappy images!! Because you don't know how to light.
People who pointed you here to Strobist.com, they all were right, but you were there for the wrong reason, looking for gear question and answer. You were not there to learn how to light!!
Some questions:
Whats your lighting needs exactly? are you going to be shooting weddings? Commercials? Fashion? Portraits? All of that?
What is your budget?
Whats your knowledge?
First .. your budget, talking money makes it easier, unless you do that for living, or starting a side/small business, you wont be able to spend thousand of dollars on light.
I am not saying get cheap stuff or top of the line, it all depends on your lighting needs, do you need to light a helicopter while you are in another one? both airborne? don't be surprised, someone already did it :)
I can talk for hours about this subject, but I'll make it short.
If I was at your place, which I was 6 months ago, I would buy the Strobist DVD set first. This is the best investment you'll ever have, I did and no regrets. It will give you a very great idea about gears, whats to get and whats to avoid. I can't talk enough about how useful to me they are. Once you got them and watched them couple of times. You will know what to get .. and the most important thing is WHY to get!!
I have nothing against Joe Mcnally's The Hot Shoe Diaries. Its already on my to buy list, But I would still get the Strobist set first. then you might not even need to buy the hot shoe diaries.
Take a photog like  Judi, give her one flash, she will end up with good result, give her light-sphere, still nice results, take the flashes and give her a lighter with a reflector .. still good results, the key is she knows how to light ..
If you have any more questions .. shoot, I'll do my best to answer,
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05/15/2009 09:48:22 AM · #16 |
This Nikonian Press CLS Book is FANTASTIC. The Sb600, 800, etc all work great, and the commander mode built into the camera and these strobes is very useful. This book tells you a lot about how to use them, plus, very important: how to get them set up into the commander modes via the somewhat obtuse menus on the strobes :-) It is slightly different from the 600 to the 800.
Umbrellas & 5 in 1 Reflectors are a good way to start, and very portable if you want to go on location.  nshapiro noted correctly that it is hard to visualize the lighting sometimes, but an easy solution is to go to Home Depot, in the worklight section, and pick up a couple of clip on lamps for a few bucks each. Clamp em onto the light stand and aim em thru the umbrella. Works great. Also cheap & portable.
I recommend you get air cushioned light stands--these prevent the harsh slide/drop/slam when lowering the stand pole--prevents a g-shock event for your pricey strobe.
BTW--I was also intimidated by flash/strobe work. Back in the film days, I only attempted on camera mounted flash with TTL, because it just seemed too complicated, and you didn't have any idea if you got it right until you got the film back!
With digital, you can play and play and get instant feedback. I recommend a workshop if you can find one--spend a day getting instruction and hands-on experience and you will save a lot of frustration time, plus possibly some bucks (since you may avoid some wasted purchases once you see how things work, what you do and do not need for your work). The strobist dvd might be a good start if you don't have any workshops available--I haven't seen the dvd, though, so I can't "officially" recommend it.
Buy some black and white foam core boards--cheap and very useful for some soft fill reflection or subtraction, etc.
and Have FUN!! |
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05/15/2009 11:10:25 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by AmeedEl-Ghoul:
Ashley, G' morning .. this is me again .. going through my first coffee :)
Your problem is not gear, your problem is you need to know how to light. As simple as that.
Gear is gear, nothing more nothing less, you can use 12 SB900 connected with kickA$$ Bucket-Wizard wireless, using NikonDX3 or whatever its top of the line is, and yet still end up with crappy images!! Because you don't know how to light.
People who pointed you here to Strobist.com, they all were right, but you were there for the wrong reason, looking for gear question and answer. You were not there to learn how to light!!
Some questions:
Whats your lighting needs exactly? are you going to be shooting weddings? Commercials? Fashion? Portraits? All of that?
What is your budget?
Whats your knowledge?
First .. your budget, talking money makes it easier, unless you do that for living, or starting a side/small business, you wont be able to spend thousand of dollars on light.
I am not saying get cheap stuff or top of the line, it all depends on your lighting needs, do you need to light a helicopter while you are in another one? both airborne? don't be surprised, someone already did it :)
I can talk for hours about this subject, but I'll make it short.
If I was at your place, which I was 6 months ago, I would buy the Strobist DVD set first. This is the best investment you'll ever have, I did and no regrets. It will give you a very great idea about gears, whats to get and whats to avoid. I can't talk enough about how useful to me they are. Once you got them and watched them couple of times. You will know what to get .. and the most important thing is WHY to get!!
I have nothing against Joe Mcnally's The Hot Shoe Diaries. Its already on my to buy list, But I would still get the Strobist set first. then you might not even need to buy the hot shoe diaries.
Take a photog like Judi, give her one flash, she will end up with good result, give her light-sphere, still nice results, take the flashes and give her a lighter with a reflector .. still good results, the key is she knows how to light ..
If you have any more questions .. shoot, I'll do my best to answer, |
One definite advantage of Mcnally's book is it is specifically based around use of CLS. I could be wrong, but I didn't get the impression that the OP was interested in fully committing to the PW & Strobist route (which is definitely more flexible). Mcnally's book also goes through each aspect of the photos he brings up as examples, including many lighting diagrams and general information on items and their function. For somebody new to lighting, this is perfect. It also has a decent amount of info on just using one speedlight in various scenarios, plus a few pages on controlling the SB900 & SB800, plus commander modes. I would suggest you (the OP) go peruse your local Barnes and Noble and see if they have a copy in stock to look through. That way, you can decide if that would be right for you or not. I have heard wonderful things about the Strobist DVD's and I've seen some clips that were really informative, but they are also far more expensive and less previewable.
I definitely agree with your message though, that it is largely technique, not gear that defines the usage of light. The starving setup that Hobby recommends is cheap and from many years past, but still extremely effective if you grasp the concepts. |
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05/15/2009 11:48:59 AM · #18 |
If your looking to simplify the hardware then grab a simple starving student type kit from MPEX
IMO - It's far from the best option for each piece but it's a start and a simple to think about. Having said that - it really is about the light so hit that first. Buy Light, Science & Magic first... and read Joe for the laughs - you can come back later. |
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05/15/2009 12:21:57 PM · #19 |
Here is a link to an excellent DVD on the Nikon Creative Lighting System (CLS) featuring Joe McNally, produced by Nikon. A little pricely, like everything Nikon it seems, but it worth the money if you want to learn about Nikon CLS. Nikon CLS
Message edited by author 2009-05-15 16:25:53. |
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05/15/2009 12:24:39 PM · #20 |
| It seems to me a lot of the wizards over at Strobist use workhorse Vivatars or whatever powerful flash that they can get cheap, and put their money into pocketwizards, stands, baffles, snoods, ect. Big money on a flashunit with ettl and bells and whistles is fine on camera, but once it is being controlled by a remote, its just a battery and a bulb. |
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05/15/2009 12:28:13 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by The Eskimo:
Here is a link to an excellent DVD on the Nikon Creative Lighting System (CLS), produced by Nikon. A little pricely, like everything Nikon it seems, but it worth the money if you want to learn about Nikon CLS. Nikin CLS |
I think the book would be a more intelligent choice, comparing the two. The book seems to cover a wider spectrum. And yes, I agree that everything Nikon is annoyingly expensive...
I'm still disgruntled about the cost of the MC-30 and SC-28... :(
Message edited by author 2009-05-15 16:28:33. |
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05/15/2009 12:34:00 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
It seems to me a lot of the wizards over at Strobist use workhorse Vivatars or whatever powerful flash that they can get cheap, and put their money into pocketwizards, stands, baffles, snoods, ect. Big money on a flashunit with ettl and bells and whistles is fine on camera, but once it is being controlled by a remote, its just a battery and a bulb. |
Agreed, and that is the main difference between Strobist and Mcnally. Mcnally has an insane number of dedicated flashes (upwards of 30) and can do whatever he wants. Hardly anybody has 30 SB800's. Strobist advocates budget approaches with flashes and high tech syncing and manual flash settings. I think manual flash settings are more esoteric for the beginner than auto I-ttl. Strobist is undoubtedly more adaptable, but really, buying two PW receivers, a transmitter, and whatever flashes you choose, turns out to be a higher cost unless you go the starving route (not knocking it, just pointing out that if you are this interested in lighting an upgraded kit might be well worth the money.
ETA: The other thing is that yes, if you are pursuing a Strobist route, buying Nikon dedicated flashes can be foolhardy from a cost perspective. On the other hand, you can utilize the I-TTL and therefore those bells and whistles aren't useless. Also, if you run Radiopoppers or the new PW's, you can have the distance of standard PW and the CLS as well, so it depends where you're going with all this as far as what is and isn't a wise choice.
Message edited by author 2009-05-15 16:37:27. |
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05/15/2009 12:35:56 PM · #23 |
I think the book would be a more intelligent choice, comparing the two. The book seems to cover a wider spectrum. And yes, I agree that everything Nikon is annoyingly expensive...
I'm still disgruntled about the cost of the MC-30 and SC-28... :(
I don't have the book but coincidentally I just ordered it this past Monday from Amazon and haven't received it yet. I am glad to hear that you think it's a good read.
Message edited by author 2009-05-15 16:37:41. |
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05/15/2009 12:46:04 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by The Eskimo:
I think the book would be a more intelligent choice, comparing the two. The book seems to cover a wider spectrum. And yes, I agree that everything Nikon is annoyingly expensive...
I'm still disgruntled about the cost of the MC-30 and SC-28... :(
I don't have the book but coincidentally I just ordered it this past Monday from Amazon and haven't received it yet. I am glad to hear that you think it's a good read. |
The biggest reason why I say this is that I don't think CLS is really that hard to use. I know the controls for the SB800 (not familiar with those of the SB600) are way more confusing than they should be, but the concept of CLS is pretty simple, as Nikon meant it to be. (The manuals are really something else though... I read my D300 manual front to back with no problem but my SB900 manual is something else entirely)
I think that the book approaches lighting from a theory standpoint, saying "lighting from here will produce this/that which is good because this/that." as compared to "set flash to group A..." which doesn't address lighting strategy or theory at all (which, IMO, is more important than super gear.) Really, you could replicate all of Mcnally's shots using random outdated flashes and slave triggers (if required), but it would be more of a Strobist style approach (full manual and chimping for settings) as compared to a "the camera figures it out and makes things faster" Mcnally approach. To really choose one or the other, you need to look at what they are preaching. |
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05/15/2009 01:43:49 PM · #25 |
Here's another link that might help - //www.juliagreerphotography.com/sb-800-article.htm
She talks about the SB-800 throughout, but at the end she says the SB-600 could be used instead. |
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