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05/12/2004 04:06:21 AM · #226 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
You can't condemn an entire religion/people for what some zealot idiots have done. |
You could also try throwing 'US Army' in there in place of 'religion' too, you know.
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05/12/2004 04:10:13 AM · #227 |
There are over 55 passeges in the Koran that condone violance against others. I believe most of those are NOT in self defense, but instead paints them as the aggressor.
The Christian bible had these as well. But the difference is those teachings are not tought on ANY mass level and the holy institutions are against them.
The opposite is true for the muslim faith. On mass levels of 10s of thousands the violent teachings of the Koran are tought and PRACTICED.
It is careless and in the wrong to compare Christianity with the Muslim faith in regards to violence.
Ever notice how you can sight almost every single use of christianity for cause of violance in the US... Too bad I can't count that high for acts on behalf of the muslim faith.
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state ofsubjection. [9.29]
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [9.5]
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult or oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. [2:190-193]
"the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."[4.101]
Quran tells us to: "not to make friends with Jews and Christians"(5:51)
"kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191)
"murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123)
"fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5)
Quran says that all those who disbelieve in Islam go to hell (5:10), they are najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders us to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28)
It asks the Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut off the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have great punishment in the world hereafter" (5:34)
For those who "believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" (48:13)
Message edited by author 2004-05-12 08:17:55.
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05/12/2004 04:13:29 AM · #228 |
US report into Iraqi jail abuses
Doesn't exactly sound like hazing to me. I'd hate to have been educated where people would think this is just a school prank.
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05/12/2004 04:18:43 AM · #229 |
Originally posted by Damian:
Am I the only one who thinks watching a person getting killed very disrespectful??????
WATCHING this video benefits nobody in no way. We know what happend, we do not need to see it with our eyes.
Be respectful and pass on this video. |
Should we also pass on the photos of prisoner abuse? |
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05/12/2004 04:23:09 AM · #230 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Christian Reconstructionists...The Christian Coalition...Unificiation Church of Moon...the Grahams...Robertson and Reed...the Christians that are working to make this country into a theocracy...there are many other people and organizations, but there are some.
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I think it's the fundamentalist Christians that are the problem...not all Christians. |
Some of my best friends are Christians. |
your definition of christian is too broad |
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the grahams, robertson and reed..WOW!! how ignorant you really are. you're calling out about 30-40 percent of the country there buddy
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05/12/2004 04:55:30 AM · #231 |
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05/12/2004 05:14:59 AM · #232 |
Good artical, thats sums up my thoughts, it's just a whole lot better and less pointy than my words :)
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05/12/2004 05:20:08 AM · #233 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
You can't condemn an entire religion/people for what some zealot idiots have done. |
That is just absolutely hillarious, given the anti-christian attacks by you and orussell about 30 posts back. |
I have to set the record straight. My posts were directed toward fanatics, all fanatics, Christian, Muslim, left, right, etc. Furthermore I don't believe all people who fall into these groups are fanatics. I do however think there are a few fanatics among us. God help us all if you guys were at the helm - you'd make Hitler look like a choirboy. And BTW, I don't hate Christians, I was raised a Christian.
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05/12/2004 07:06:31 AM · #234 |
I wasn't condemning the entire Christian religion or the people who follow it. If you read a few posts down you would see that I named some names and organizations that are troublesome.
Originally posted by ScottK:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
You can't condemn an entire religion/people for what some zealot idiots have done. |
That is just absolutely hillarious, given the anti-christian attacks by you and orussell about 30 posts back. |
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05/12/2004 07:26:54 AM · #235 |
I don't condemn the entire US Army...only those who've perpetrated the tortures in the prisons and the imperialist leaders who've sent our young men and women off to fight this war.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
You can't condemn an entire religion/people for what some zealot idiots have done. |
You could also try throwing 'US Army' in there in place of 'religion' too, you know. |
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05/12/2004 07:27:03 AM · #236 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
a business man?? try mercenary. |
Berg, who was unmarried, owned a small business that worked with communication equipment like radio towers. He saw his trip to Iraq, his father said, as an adventure _ one that fit his ideology as a war supporter and backer of the Bush administration.
I love you people, we should treat all people like they are free Americans, whether they are AMERICAN KILlING TERRORISTS or NOT. BUT when an American is killed, the first thing I hear is well he was a mercenary, so it's OK... I'm disgusted!
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05/12/2004 07:27:05 AM · #237 |
Another interesting news item, apparently the pictures of the decapitation were originally hosted on a webserver located in Malaysia at MYLOCA. See discussion below:
//www.jeffooi.com/archives/001977.php
//tabletalk.salon.com/webx?14@11.NObaaX2Zds6.3@.7739fe28/2871
Quite disturbing for i am from Malaysia -.-" |
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05/12/2004 08:12:12 AM · #238 |
quote: The media's concern for America's image is no match for their power lust to rid Washington of Donald Rumsfeld, and -- they dream -- eventually President Bush as well.
MY comment: Highly unlikely since the media thrive on war and they are very happy to have Michael Powell (son of Colin) as head of the FCC, who is trying to pass regulations that would allow for even greater consolidation of the media into hands of even fewer entities.
Quote: The end result is that Americans are inundated with visuals of injustices committed by Americans, and lost is the reality of far graver and more frequent atrocities committed against Americans. Reality gives way to the perception of reality, all in the name of "news."
Comment: How does he know this? Based on what?
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05/12/2004 08:18:05 AM · #239 |
So enlighten me.
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Christian Reconstructionists...The Christian Coalition...Unificiation Church of Moon...the Grahams...Robertson and Reed...the Christians that are working to make this country into a theocracy...there are many other people and organizations, but there are some.
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I think it's the fundamentalist Christians that are the problem...not all Christians. |
Some of my best friends are Christians. |
your definition of christian is too broad |
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the grahams, robertson and reed..WOW!! how ignorant you really are. you're calling out about 30-40 percent of the country there buddy |
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05/12/2004 09:58:33 AM · #240 |
Quote: The end result is that Americans are inundated with visuals of injustices committed by Americans, and lost is the reality of far graver and more frequent atrocities committed against Americans. Reality gives way to the perception of reality, all in the name of "news."
Comment: How does he know this? Based on what?
Seems to me this is good for starters:
Boston Globe Publishes Bogus Rape Photos
edited to say: What kind of keystone cops journalism would lead to the publication of unverified information? Could it be the kind that has a definite agenda? Hmmmmm?
Message edited by author 2004-05-12 13:59:45.
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05/12/2004 10:07:49 AM · #241 |
That's amazing!! And to think, the //www.worldnetdaily.com scooped it, speaking of keystone cop journalism. LOL
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05/12/2004 10:25:23 AM · #242 |
Notes to consider:
Berg's family said he was there working on comm towers for the Iraqi people. They did this to someone that was helping them rebuild. It is guessed they did this to him because he is Jewish.
The prisoners that were allegedly mistreated were supposedly in the worst cell blocks in the prison. If so, these were not prisoners that were picked up on suspicion of crimes and were not the 70-90% that may be innocent. These were the other 10-30% that were in there for good reason.
The female private now world infamous claims she was told to do the poses and take the pictures to be used as psy ops interrogation methods and she says she was told what they were doing was working. If the information obtained prevented the deaths of Americans, I have no problems with how it was aquired.
If this is true, I'm dissapointed in GW for apologizing.
And anther $.02... Anyone that thinks the pictures from the prison are appaling needs to watch the Berg video. Reading about it was gresome, disturbing and enraged me. Seeing it is something totally different on another level and did other things to me. It bothered me more then seeing the jets crash into the world trade center. The 9/11 terrorist didn't look there victim in the eye when they did it. They didn't hear the screams. |
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05/12/2004 12:42:11 PM · #243 |
This question is to Olyuzi, orussell and GeneralE. I am serious about this and would like you to give me a serious answer.
George W. Bush has stated that we are at war with terrorism, the fundamentalist Muslims have call for a Jihad (Holy War) against us, so I think we can all agree that we are fighting a war.
You three have made it clear that you believe we are wrong for pursuing this war. You seem to all agree that we are the aggressors and must share most of the blame for the way things are going wrong in Iraq. We are responsible for turning world opinion against us. So let's say that you are correct and our current situation this is just the culmination of years or poor leadership and bad policy from the Republicans.
If this is true then it seems to me that the only way to end the war and return to peace is to surrender. So here is my question:
George W. Bush call a summit with Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat and the other powerful leaders of the Jihad; what would be the terms of surrender and would you be willing to agree to them. It other words, what can Bush (or Kerry for that matter) now do to end this cycle of violence and bring about world peace?
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05/12/2004 12:57:29 PM · #244 |
Originally posted by rcrawford:
... So here is my question:
George W. Bush call a summit with Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat and the other powerful leaders of the Jihad; what would be the terms of surrender and would you be willing to agree to them. It other words, what can Bush (or Kerry for that matter) now do to end this cycle of violence and bring about world peace? |
I appreciate your asking this -- it is in fact the basic question which needs to be answered and is not being addressed -- but it will take me some time to compose a reasonable answer since bringing about world peace is not exactly my full-time job like for those listed above.
I do have a flippant answer though ... if we could get all of them together for a major pow-wow, maybe that's just the opportunity we've been looking for to field-test one of those tactical nukes we've been developing for battlefield use.
Alternatively, lock them in there with their choice of weapons and let God protect the truly righteous ... GWB really outta be able to take Osama mano a mano with all the workout time he has ... |
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05/12/2004 01:14:03 PM · #245 |
GeneralE,
I'm sill laughing at that 'mano a mano' comment. I have this mental image of Bush with his six-shooter strapped to his side at high noon ready to out draw Osama.
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05/12/2004 01:21:08 PM · #246 |
Originally posted by rcrawford:
GeneralE,
I'm sill laughing at that 'mano a mano' comment. I have this mental image of Bush with his six-shooter strapped to his side at high noon ready to out draw Osama. |
I'm glad you can spare a little mental attention for humor in these dire times ... :)
I always thought we could have nipped this in the bud if we'd just let Mr. Reagan have at the Ayatollah ... as I remember he was pretty handy with an axe.
As for your scenario, I envisioned it more like Indiana Jones when he was confronted by that swordsman at the bazaar in Raiders of the Lost ARk or maybe the "knife fight" in Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid.
Either way, I wish if these guys thought there was something worth fighting over they'd take some personal responsibility and see to it themselves ... it's a relatively recent development that the "king" was not leading the troops into battle.
Message edited by author 2004-05-12 17:25:03. |
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05/12/2004 01:46:57 PM · #247 |
Originally posted by rcrawford:
This question is to Olyuzi, orussell and GeneralE. I am serious about this and would like you to give me a serious answer.
George W. Bush has stated that we are at war with terrorism, the fundamentalist Muslims have call for a Jihad (Holy War) against us, so I think we can all agree that we are fighting a war.
You three have made it clear that you believe we are wrong for pursuing this war. You seem to all agree that we are the aggressors and must share most of the blame for the way things are going wrong in Iraq. We are responsible for turning world opinion against us. So let's say that you are correct and our current situation this is just the culmination of years or poor leadership and bad policy from the Republicans.
If this is true then it seems to me that the only way to end the war and return to peace is to surrender. So here is my question:
George W. Bush call a summit with Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat and the other powerful leaders of the Jihad; what would be the terms of surrender and would you be willing to agree to them. It other words, what can Bush (or Kerry for that matter) now do to end this cycle of violence and bring about world peace? |
What can we do? Stay out of other countries affairs. Get out of the middle east altogether. These people have been killing each other for centuries, so let them continue, if they wish. It's obvious that our ideologies are not welcome there for the most part, so we shouldn't try to westernize them. Chances are if we had stayed out of there in the first place, they (fanatics/terrorists) would have stayed away from us. Might sound stupid to you but trouble usually comes to those who go in search of it.
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05/12/2004 02:05:06 PM · #248 |
| I agree 100% that we should have minded our own business and let them have at each other. The problem is that we are way past that now. So my question still stands, what do you think they would accept as terms of surrender? |
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05/12/2004 02:17:53 PM · #249 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
So enlighten me.
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Christian Reconstructionists...The Christian Coalition...Unificiation Church of Moon...the Grahams...Robertson and Reed...the Christians that are working to make this country into a theocracy...there are many other people and organizations, but there are some.
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I think it's the fundamentalist Christians that are the problem...not all Christians. |
Some of my best friends are Christians. |
your definition of christian is too broad |
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the grahams, robertson and reed..WOW!! how ignorant you really are. you're calling out about 30-40 percent of the country there buddy |
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prove to me where graham or robertson have said things that made you fit them into your sick little scheme
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05/12/2004 03:26:06 PM · #250 |
Originally posted by orussell:
Chances are if we had stayed out of there in the first place, they (fanatics/terrorists) would have stayed away from us. |
Maybe this is a key position that makes are view so different.
I personally think it is EXTREMLY niave to think this. I think that the idea of if we leave them alone they will leave us alone is foolish and will get us in deeper shit than we could ever imagin.
I feel that the only chance for survival is to hunt these men down and kill them. Yes KILL them. Police action does not work, 8 years of clinton and non-action by the 3 presidents before him is the reason behind the terrorist effort now being so strong.
I don't understand how anyone can come to a truely rational decision and believe what you've basically stated. I think it's a great hope, but an extremly far off dream is a more acurate description of it.
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