?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

01/16/2009 06:44:00 AM · #101

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:
So, lets really simplify this:
Christianity (according to Achoo): If you believe in Jesus, he will save you.
Most other religions (according to Achoo): If you act according to the dictates of the religion, you will save yourself.

Is that fair?

Weren't you just busting on me for simplifying things? ;)

"If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. "

You could easily show me wrong by quoting other faiths which show salvation or enlightenment or nirvana is attained for us by someone else.

I was just asking if what I stated above was a fair assessment of your belief. I have no desire to prove you right or wrong, but I do have a desire to understand from where you are coming. So, can you answer my question? From your responses, I would guess you agree?

01/16/2009 06:51:26 AM · #102

Originally posted by dahkota:

Yes. I think it is fair. Unless you are baiting me with some word semantics, then I take it all back. In Christianity, Salvation is attained for us by someone else's merit. In all other faiths, as I understand them, we attain Salvation (or the equivalent within the specific religion) by our own merit.

Spork99

Canon EOS R8

Canon RF 16mm F2.8 STM

01/16/2009 06:58:57 AM · #103

Originally posted by rossbilly:

speaking of worm food, what do many of you feel regarding:

reincarnation?
donating your body to science postmortem?
cremation?

My entire family knows that I want my body donated to science, because I would hope it helps a doctor or scientist learn more & help someone who IS alive.

thoughts?

I bequeath myself to the dirt to grow from the grass I love,
If you want me again look for me under your boot-soles. - Walt Whitman

dahkota

01/16/2009 06:59:09 AM · #104

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:
I was just asking if what I stated above was a fair assessment of your belief. I have no desire to prove you right or wrong, but I do have a desire to understand from where you are coming. So, can you answer my question? From your responses, I would guess you agree?

Yes. I think it is fair. Unless you are baiting me with some word semantics, then I take it all back. In Christianity, Salvation is attained for us by someone else's merit. In all other faiths, as I understand them, we attain Salvation (or the equivalent within the specific religion) by our own merit.

No - not baiting you at all. Just trying to understand. For me at least, due to 'my environment' (you know, the one everyone blames for our religious choices), I have always believed that and been raised to understand that one MUST be responsible for all aspects of their life, including their own salvation. I think what you find to be unique within christianity is the same thing that troubles me about it. I follow a much more eastern philosophy of life and death which places me at the center of my own salvation, so to speak. I hold the key and I am responsible; I do not depend on the existence of, decisions of, and even whims of, someone (something) else. To do that would be giving up the power of forging my own destiny, something I am not willing to do.

01/16/2009 07:15:45 AM · #105

Originally posted by dahkota:

I think your viewpoint is common and I also think this aspect of Christianity causes both attraction and revulsion. You can take some comfort, I suppose, from knowing your response is 2,000 years old. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." It is quite difficult to admit one can't do it. I'll tell you what. At some point in your life you will be beaten down (life does that). At that point when you are forcing yourself to pick up your head and get back on that figurative treadmill, look back on this and ask yourself whether it is now attractive rather than repulsive.

CS Lewis wrote a book called "The Great Divorce" which is a fantastical look at heaven and hell. In it he has a poignant description of heaven. "Everything is here for the asking and nothing can be bought." To those who think they are rich it is ashes in their mouth. To those who think they are poor it is the sweetest honey. It sums up nicely the "absurdity" of Christianity.

david_c

01/16/2009 07:39:21 AM · #106

If you're still up for it, would you like to try Dan Barker's Easter Challenge?

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

01/16/2009 08:01:18 AM · #107

Originally posted by david_c:

If you're still up for it, would you like to try Dan Barker's Easter Challenge?

Not a bad argument eh? I'm certainly aware of differences in the stories. OTOH, I think it is just as compelling an argument that within a decade there were people running around claiming Jesus was resurrected and dying for this belief. Within two decades there was a robust theology which is still recognized 2,000 years later. If it was a conspiracy, the perpetrators to the man died mainly horrific deaths without giving up their secret. So while I don't think you can just dismiss what Barker is saying, I likewise don't think you can dismiss the Easter story, as Barker does, as being "myth". Something happened.

JMart

Nikon D80

01/16/2009 08:03:58 AM · #108

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by JMart:
Adult conversions can also be linked to a person's environment, so the factor of age alone is immaterial. Religious distribution by region is far more compelling in this regard. You may know lots of people who came to faith as adults, but how many of them came to embrace Islamic faith or Hindu faith? If we were in Iran or India you would have seen many such non-Christian conversions around you. As an American you will probably see more conversions towards Christianity.

Aren't the odds really in favor of humans generally imitating the beliefs of the community around them? You can say this is God's super mysterious paradigm and not a problem for finite mortals to deal with or explain, but a skeptic like me just hears that as a cop out to a seriously problematic issue for religions.

You didn't read the rest of the post you quoted. I spoke to that. That and the fact I pointed out that one is always in an environment so it would be impossible to show the environment was not a factor.

Perhaps I'm dancing around the central question too much. The Christian prescription to salvation seems to be an exclusive path in all but the most liberal interpretations of Christianity. If you don't accept Jesus as the atoning sacrifice for your sins you will suffer the penalty of eternal damnation.

If you accept that premise for salvation as reality, wouldn't the consequence of such a reality result in the eternal damnation of the majority of humans throughout history? Wouldn't the fate of most of them rely heavily on which region of the Earth they were born into? I did read your response to

Yanko's questions carefully, but it seems to me that your response was overly dismissive of the power a person's culture has on their religious choices.

You also ended by saying, "Is it fair some are born with this advantage? You'll have to ask God." Actually, I'm asking you if it's fair because you're the one that claims such a being exists. How could a supposedly omnipotent and loving being be capable of damning so many people because they were not born in a time or place where the "Jesus Christ get out of jail free card" was readily available? I really can't understand why that notion isn't horrifying to Christians.

I am pressing this point in particular because you were making a point about how unique Christianity is in terms of it's path to salvation, but I think that unique exclusivity really cuts both ways.

01/16/2009 08:13:17 AM · #109

Originally posted by JMart:

I am pressing this point in particular because you were making a point about how unique Christianity is in terms of it's path to salvation, but I think that unique exclusivity really cuts both ways.

Oh, I don't deny it and I agree the Christian perception of Salvation is exclusive. The Bible is rife with evidence to support this. I can't answer whether it's fair, but I can say that these are questions that have been asked since the inception of Christianity. You are not somehow bringing something up that we just didn't notice. And while it is an uncomfortable proposition, I am not going to shape it to my comfort just because it displeases me. Read Job. The whole book is Job complaining for 39 chapters that he's getting a bum deal because he did nothing wrong. God answers him in chapters 40-42. You know what the answer is? "I am God." Case closed. Christianity is a faith for grown-ups. It can provide endless comfort and peace, but it also is sharp and barbed. But isn't this our experience with life in general? Wouldn't you be even more suspect of some creed which only promised cream puffs and meringue?

01/16/2009 08:54:07 AM · #110

Originally posted by david_c:

If you're still up for it, would you like to try Dan Barker's Easter Challenge?

Someone has taken a fairly good stab at it here, for those who are interested.

01/16/2009 09:50:41 AM · #111

Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by JMart:
Adult conversions can also be linked to a person's environment, so the factor of age alone is immaterial. Religious distribution by region is far more compelling in this regard. You may know lots of people who came to faith as adults, but how many of them came to embrace Islamic faith or Hindu faith? If we were in Iran or India you would have seen many such non-Christian conversions around you. As an American you will probably see more conversions towards Christianity.

Aren't the odds really in favor of humans generally imitating the beliefs of the community around them? You can say this is God's super mysterious paradigm and not a problem for finite mortals to deal with or explain, but a skeptic like me just hears that as a cop out to a seriously problematic issue for religions.

You didn't read the rest of the post you quoted. I spoke to that. That and the fact I pointed out that one is always in an environment so it would be impossible to show the environment was not a factor.

Perhaps I'm dancing around the central question too much. The Christian prescription to salvation seems to be an exclusive path in all but the most liberal interpretations of Christianity. If you don't accept Jesus as the atoning sacrifice for your sins you will suffer the penalty of eternal damnation.

"eternal damnation" being defined as "eternal separation from God", which is said to result in "eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth".

Originally posted by JMart:

If you accept that premise for salvation as reality, wouldn't the consequence of such a reality result in the eternal damnation of the majority of humans throughout history?

Yes, it would.

Originally posted by JMart:

Wouldn't the fate of most of them rely heavily on which region of the Earth they were born into?

Their religion, perhaps; but their fate, NO.
Scripture quotes Christ as saying, of Abraham ( John 8:56 ) "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
Since Jesus of Nazareth was not a contemporary of Abraham, it would seem, at least from my interpretation of the passage, that if one believes in God ( as Abraham did ), and believes that God is a God of mercy and grace ( as Abraham did ), and accepts the reality of the fact that they will never be able to fulfill all of God's requirements for righteousness ( as Abraham did ), and throws themselves on the mercy of the court, as it were ( as Abraham did ), then they have essentially accepted the atonement that Christ offered, even if they do not know his name.

Originally posted by JMart:

I did read your response to Yanko's questions carefully, but it seems to me that your response was overly dismissive of the power a person's culture has on their religious choices.

Religion and Faith are different animals. Religion is behaviour oriented; Faith is relationship oriented. Scripture teaches that religion does not and can not save anyone; salvation depends solely on Faith.

Originally posted by JMart:

You also ended by saying, "Is it fair some are born with this advantage? You'll have to ask God." Actually, I'm asking you if it's fair because you're the one that claims such a being exists. How could a supposedly omnipotent and loving being be capable of damning so many people because they were not born in a time or place where the "Jesus Christ get out of jail free card" was readily available? I really can't understand why that notion isn't horrifying to Christians.

1) Just because it isn't equal doesn't mean it isn't fair.
2) The "Jesus Christ get out of jail free card" IS readily available to all. Only it isn't belief in the NAME that garners salvation, it's the BELIEF that "God exists, that He is worthy, that you are not His equal and never can be, that you can't save yourself no matter how hard you try, and that He can and will save you if you just agree that you can't save yourself and that He has provided the way for you" that results in salvation.
3) The notion that so many will suffer eternal damnation IS horrifying to Christians. That's what drives them to try to convince others to believe, and what upsets so many who do not WANT to believe.

Originally posted by JMart:

You're right, it really does cut both ways.

david_c

01/16/2009 10:04:24 AM · #112

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by david_c:
If you're still up for it, would you like to try Dan Barker's Easter Challenge?

--snip--OTOH, I think it is just as compelling an argument that within a decade there were people running around claiming Jesus was resurrected and dying for this belief.--snip--

It's also been only X number of years since L. Ron Hubbard concocted Scientology. Joseph Smith had followers during his lifetime. As did Muhammad, etc. I don't find it nearly as compelling, even leaving in the bit about the martyrs...all evidence of whom is anecdotal. Thanks for the reply, though.

david_c

01/16/2009 10:07:04 AM · #113

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by david_c:
If you're still up for it, would you like to try Dan Barker's Easter Challenge?

Someone has taken a fairly good stab at it here, for those who are interested.

As did that Tektonics guy, although his "style" may not be everyone's cup of tea.

01/16/2009 10:38:21 AM · #114

Originally posted by david_c:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by david_c:
If you're still up for it, would you like to try Dan Barker's Easter Challenge?

--snip--OTOH, I think it is just as compelling an argument that within a decade there were people running around claiming Jesus was resurrected and dying for this belief.--snip--

It's also been only X number of years since L. Ron Hubbard concocted Scientology. Joseph Smith had followers during his lifetime. As did Muhammad, etc. I don't find it nearly as compelling, even leaving in the bit about the martyrs...all evidence of whom is anecdotal. Thanks for the reply, though.

Don't take my statement too far. I'm not saying it makes it truth, I'm saying it means there was likely a historical event it was based on instead of being wholly fabricated. To dismiss it as "myth" is, to me, the least viable of alternative theories.

01/16/2009 11:43:33 AM · #115

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by JMart:
If you accept that premise for salvation as reality, wouldn't the consequence of such a reality result in the eternal damnation of the majority of humans throughout history?

Yes, it would.

So not only do you believe in an invisible being but you believe in an evil one. I think I rather worship Jeffrey Dahmer. He seems nicer.

01/16/2009 12:09:36 PM · #116

Originally posted by yanko:

So not only do you believe in an invisible being but you believe in an evil one. I think I rather worship Jeffrey Dahmer. He seems nicer.

Well, he's got some time on his hands so I'm guessing he could fit you in.

Sort of as an interesting aside, I don't get this line of thinking. Let's say there IS a God, but his actions are, indeed, "evil". Wouldn't that really get you to worship him all the more out of fear? Do you think poking your finger in his eye is gonna get you further in life? If he's watching and saw your little quip about Dahmer, you got trouble comin' my friend. The best thing to do would be to shut up, keep your head down, and get in line.

Message edited by author 2009-01-16 17:17:35.

01/16/2009 12:16:26 PM · #117

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by JMart:
If you accept that premise for salvation as reality, wouldn't the consequence of such a reality result in the eternal damnation of the majority of humans throughout history?

Yes, it would.

So not only do you believe in an invisible being but you believe in an evil one. I think I rather worship Jeffrey Dahmer. He seems nicer.

Nowhere did I say that I believe in an evil being, and for you to infer that I do just exposes either your lack of intelligence or your lack of intellectual integrity.

FWIW, Jeffry Dahmer said that he became a born again Christian while in Prison. If his claim is true, then he gets to spend eternity in heaven with the rest of those who believe ( that is, if their faith is found to be justified ).

01/16/2009 12:23:53 PM · #118

Originally posted by yanko:

I think I rather worship Jeffrey Dahmer. He seems nicer.

I find the comparison interesting:

Jeffrey Dahmer MURDERED INNOCENT people and ate THEIR flesh

Whie God, in the incarnate form of Christ, gave HIMSELF up to be murdered in place of SINFUL people, and instructed his disciples to drink HIS blood and eat HIS body.

It's interesting to see who you'd rather worship.

01/16/2009 12:25:46 PM · #119

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

So not only do you believe in an invisible being but you believe in an evil one. I think I rather worship Jeffrey Dahmer. He seems nicer.

Well, he's got some time on his hands so I'm guessing he could fit you in.

Sort of as an interesting aside, I don't get this line of thinking. Let's say there IS a God, but his actions are, indeed, "evil". Wouldn't that really get you to worship him all the more out of fear? Do you think poking your finger in his eye is gonna get you further in life? If he's watching and saw your little quip about Dahmer, you got trouble comin' my friend. The best thing to do would be to shut up, keep your head down, and get in line.

Because that line of thinking doesn't assume there is a god? Now if there IS a god would I worship out of fear? Hmm. I can't answer that but I do know if I was the one being worshipped I wouldn't think too highly of the person worshipping me just out of fear of my actions. It would lack sincerity to say the least. No?

01/16/2009 12:28:02 PM · #120

Originally posted by yanko:

SHHHHHH! He'll hear you.

Basically my point is your post is just saying, "I don't believe in God" rather than "God is evil".

dahkota

01/16/2009 12:29:50 PM · #121

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I need absolutely no comfort for my response and tend to believe it is christians needing comfort. Why else do they try so hard to get others to join them? See, those who believe someone else holds their salvation feel free to fall back on others; those who are responsible for their own salvation do not. As you don't know me well, you have no idea what I have been through in my life, nor what I have survived in my life. But I will tell you that when I am beaten down, I know it is my own fault and no one else can get me out of it. I do not have to force myself to pick myself up - that is a foreign concept to me. Just as you willingly beg your God for help and salvation, I willingly ask myself to persevere and carry on. I don't exist on a treadmill because, since I control my life, I decide where I will be - on a treadmill is not it. There is nothing to look back on as I do not look back. No, I don't find copping out to be attractive; I find it weak, lazy, and sad.

I have tried repeatedly to explain to you that you and I look at life from vastly different places. I am working hard to understand how you see things; please give me the same consideration.

01/16/2009 12:31:50 PM · #122

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by JMart:
If you accept that premise for salvation as reality, wouldn't the consequence of such a reality result in the eternal damnation of the majority of humans throughout history?

Yes, it would.

So not only do you believe in an invisible being but you believe in an evil one. I think I rather worship Jeffrey Dahmer. He seems nicer.

Nowhere did I say that I believe in an evil being, and for you to infer that I do just exposes either your lack of intelligence or your lack of intellectual integrity.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. Did you not infer that god would send the majority of humans to hell? Am I right in assuming that hell is an awful place? So god sends the majority of humans to an awful place. Is that right? Jeffrey Dahmer only sent 17 people to an awful place, hence the comment he's nicer.

Originally posted by RonB:

FWIW, Jeffry Dahmer said that he became a born again Christian while in Prison. If his claim is true, then he gets to spend eternity in heaven with the rest of those who believe ( that is, if their faith is found to be justified ).

And if I don't do that I go to hell right? Dahmer, the serial killer goes to heaven, but I, the non-murderer doesn't?

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

01/16/2009 12:32:48 PM · #123

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Because that line of thinking doesn't assume there is a god? Now if there IS a god would I worship out of fear? Hmm. I can't answer that but I do know if I was the one being worshipped I wouldn't think too highly of the person worshipping me just out of fear of my actions. It would lack sincerity to say the least. No?

SHHHHHH! He'll hear you.

Basically my point is your post is just saying, "I don't believe in God" rather than "God is evil".

Actually no. I'm saying I don't believe in your god and that your god appears to be evil.

Edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2009-01-16 17:33:56.

JMart

Nikon D80

01/16/2009 12:35:57 PM · #124

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by JMart:
I am pressing this point in particular because you were making a point about how unique Christianity is in terms of it's path to salvation, but I think that unique exclusivity really cuts both ways.

Oh, I don't deny it and I agree the Christian perception of Salvation is exclusive. The Bible is rife with evidence to support this. I can't answer whether it's fair, but I can say that these are questions that have been asked since the inception of Christianity. You are not somehow bringing something up that we just didn't notice. And while it is an uncomfortable proposition, I am not going to shape it to my comfort just because it displeases me. Read Job. The whole book is Job complaining for 39 chapters that he's getting a bum deal because he did nothing wrong. God answers him in chapters 40-42. You know what the answer is? "I am God." Case closed. Christianity is a faith for grown-ups. It can provide endless comfort and peace, but it also is sharp and barbed. But isn't this our experience with life in general? Wouldn't you be even more suspect of some creed which only promised cream puffs and meringue?

I love the story of Job for the opposite reason. God's alleged response to Job seems too childish and petulant to have come from an omnipotent being who supposedly loves people. That's one reason why I believe stories like Job are just works of fiction that have been taken far too seriously. I'm not particularly impressed by the bullying of Job. This "just do as I say... don't you dare question me" characteristic of God does not strike me as evidence that this is a faith for grown-ups in particular. Grown ups tend to communicate with reason and a degree of respect. It is children who are told "How dare you question me!" Besides, wasn't it Jesus that supposedly said you must come to him as a child to enter the kingdom of Heaven? ;)

The other twist to Christian salvation that bothers me is this; Doesn't Christianity outline eternal penalties for finite crimes? This is troublesome to me when I hear evangelicals say things like, "Have you ever told a lie... Well then you're a liar and a sinner and the penalty for sin is eternal damnation..." Uh, no. How is it that such a finite crime garners eternal punishment? I imagine the answer has something to do with God just saying so, therefore the case is closed. I'm not sure why I should believe something based on such childish reasoning. It all seems very Dark Ages to me, but at least we don't get arrested for disagreeing these days.