I vote there should be a free study every month!

02/12/2004 07:49:06 AM · #28

The problem with splitting things up by "average score" is that users who are close to the "cusp points" could be bounced around between the levels pretty easily. i.e., somebody who is at 4.93 or 5.09 could be in one category one week and then bumped up (or down) the next.

I've actually been in favor of implementing a "points system" at DPC for a while. I've posted the details about it in the past, and even wrote up a more detailed proposal for the Site Council members. I envision a system where you earn points depending on where you place in a challenge. Obviously the ribbon-winning shots would get the most points and earn "majors", but you could still earn points just for "placing well" (placing in the top 10, placing in the top 10%, placing in the top 25%, etc.)

A point system like this would have many advantages IMHO. First and foremost, it would provide a little sense of satisfaction for those who submit but don't win a ribbon. At least a well-scoring photo would earn some "points". Second, it would be a method of determining a photographer's skill level for comparing photos at different levels. Third, it would provide a way to "rank" photographers based on challenge results. Right now, there is no way to know who the "winningest" photographers are on the site. A user's average score is one thing, but is somebody who has an average score of 7.0990 with 3 ribbons (vipermike) more "winning" than someone with an average score of 5.8770 and 19 ribbons? (jjbeguin)? By having a way to view profiles sorted by "points", you could see who really has been successful here on DPC, even if they've never ribboned but have a lot of highly-placed entries. It would just be another way of "rewarding", if you will, placing well in a challenge. Finally, once you earn points/majors, they aren't taken away, so if a "quarterly free study" challenge was split into "Apprentice" and "Challenge" classes, once you were in the "Challenge" class you wouldn't be bumped down to "Apprentice" for submitting a "clunker" that the voters didn't understand and wrecking your average.

Anyway, just my opinion...

Message edited by author 2004-02-12 13:01:27.

C-Fox

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

02/12/2004 07:50:46 AM · #29

Oh what a great idea. If monthy is too much on the system/bandwidth it could be done at least quarterly or every other month. I really like the idea of average score being a dividing line. Since even one challenge would give you an "average" score There would not be many newcommers who would miss out.

Originally posted by dsidwell:

MinAlex

Minolta DiMAGE A1

02/12/2004 07:56:26 AM · #30

Excuse this newbie's ignorance but, why is a free study more appropriate to a month long challenge than to a regular week long one? And if the one in December was under the Advanced rules wouldn't it be time to do one under Basic rules? Newcomers would probably feel more comfortable about entering under Basic rules.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

02/12/2004 08:04:02 AM · #31

Originally posted by MinAlex:

My experience with the free study challenges is that there are a lot of great photographs each time we do it. The photographer is not constrained to meet someone else's view of what the challenge topic is. The extra time frame gives everyone a decent opportunity to come up with that great photo.

Spork99

Canon EOS R8

Canon RF 16mm F2.8 STM

02/12/2004 08:09:08 AM · #32

Count me in!!

deafwolf

Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX DG APO IF for Canon

02/12/2004 08:13:33 AM · #33

I like this idea. For people like me that stuggle sometimes to get the time to enter a week challenge, it would give me time. I like Eddys idea also about points. Perhaps a new thread discussion those possibilities would be appropriate.

C-Fox

02/12/2004 09:01:55 AM · #34

What about alternating every other month basic, the even months advanced editting. I like the idea that people submitt their one best photo of the month. Next month best photo but with editting. That way those who are novices at editing (like me) still have a chance to learn from the pros and a whole extra month to practise anything we learn before the next challenge. It would also be interesting to see if there was any noticible quality difference in the pictures between those that are allowed advanced editting and those which the original basic edditing rules apply given that people will be posting their very best photos rather then strainning for meeting a topic.

Originally posted by MinAlex:

TooCool

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

02/12/2004 10:16:44 AM · #35

I say NO!

JUST KIDDING! I mentioned this back in December in one of the rules debate threads. I think it would be awesome!

blindjustice

Canon EOS-60D

02/12/2004 10:29:29 AM · #36

I say the free study idea is a hit...put it to a vote...this thread will serve as the requisite signatures on the petition...

Kerry

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

02/12/2004 10:51:16 AM · #37

I'm a new member...new poster...and just getting the hang of the whole upload and keep it this size and not too big here...I havent done well...but didnt expect to whilst I learned...I joined specifically FOR the challenges with an eye toward learning to fulfill someone else idea...making me think...so far I have enjoyed it... It would seem that this Month Challenge you are discussing sounds good..can you give a newbie a quick synopsis????

muckpond

Nikon D200

02/12/2004 11:46:11 AM · #38

aye

jrs915

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

02/12/2004 01:19:27 PM · #39

Eddy: I think you have some great ideas in that post, and I believe that could potentially increase the quality of the site.

Kerry: in december, there was a "December Free Study" where the challenge was to just submit your best shot that you took in December, not topic to find a shot for, you could just submit your favorite shot.

I really liked it, and based on the other opinions in the thread, I believe everyone else seemed to like it as well :)

goinskiing

Canon EOS-6D

02/12/2004 02:08:53 PM · #40

The point system is a MARVELOUS idea. IT is a perfectly fair way to see who the winningest photogs are and it would give those members who have been here longer than I have the recognition they truly deserve. I also believe that it would be cool to reward forum posters some way (even though I don't have many posts, I'm still working on it, but I sure read them ALL the time).

As far as the Free Study goes, I am all for that. Count my vote as an aye!

Kerry

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

02/12/2004 02:27:07 PM · #41

jrs915...ah..plain and simple...thank you...that would make a nice change from the frenetic brain scramble I get into when a topic is announced...I have been posting at Zoetrope for several years and that is more their formula...you post your best shots...but must review 4 to post one...their is a point system in 4 categories and you MUST make a comment to help the photographer...50 word minimum....your photo then stays "live" for a month...you can post one photo per 24 hour period as long as you review the 4...it has a lot more relaxed a feel...it really is a complement to this site (IMHO)...allowing me to relax there but get in a tizzy here....
falling asleep thinking of textures and elements....lol...

Imagineer

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

02/12/2004 02:27:35 PM · #42

Monthly Free Study with Open Editing

Message edited by author 2004-02-12 19:30:44.

blindjustice

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

02/13/2004 04:07:59 AM · #43

I have to make a small argument against labeling photographer's by points based upon where they place in challenges. This puts a high value on mediocre or conforming work. Perhaps points and the scoring doesn't really matter all that much- and I know a lot of my photograph's come in last or near last, but really- do we want to encourage people not to enter a challenge because they fear that their score will drop?
do we want to discourage risk taking? experimentation? all for some "reward"-
to me there are ribbons and also-rans. there is no prize for finishing 10th in every contest ever and there should never be a cummulative effect prize. The satisfaction of being someone's favorite, or good comments or the thought of winning a ribbon should be enough.

One of the best posts, at leats most persuasive was from EDDY G when he said should we really say 18 ribbons and an average score of 5 is not as worthy as 3 ribbons and an average score of 7? which is better or fit for more recognition?

All I'm saying is that taking chances; experimenting, creating and challenging yourself is what this site is good for. It really should not be about saying that, on average, although I'm not very good, my shots have somewhat better mass appeal than yours, etc.
If the so called "losers" or "lower echelon" photographers didn;t enter the challenges, the wins would be less impressive, wouldn't they?
Plus- maybe a photographer has a great portfolio and stinks at challenges and enters for the fun of it.
Oh yeah, and lastly, if you change the rules and add a point system, lets start from scratch so that I can only enter conforming, mass appeal shots.

Message edited by author 2004-02-13 09:09:38.

Beagleboy

Canon EOS-30D

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

02/13/2004 04:19:57 AM · #44

Originally posted by C-Fox:

What about alternating every other month basic, the even months advanced editting.

That would

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

02/13/2004 04:34:45 AM · #45

Sorry you don't like my idea Paul.

Originally posted by blindjustice:

to me there are ribbons and also-rans. there is no prize for finishing 10th in every contest ever and there should never be a cummulative effect prize.

I can site quite a few examples where "points" are earned and accumulated. Professional hockey, NASCAR racing, dog shows, etc. all "earn points" based on "performance", not just "winning". The better you are, the more points you earn. I'm sure there are countless other examples as well.

Originally posted by blindjustice:

One of the best posts, at leats most persuasive was from EDDY G when he said should we really say 18 ribbons and an average score of 5 is not as worthy as 3 ribbons and an average score of 7? which is better or fit for more recognition?

And by having a point system as an alternative way of viewing a photographer's performance, somebody like jjbeguin would be near the top (if not at the top) of a list instead of vipermike, and JJ deserves to have that recognition. Having only average score as a measurement does not take into account enough factors. As an analogy, using "average score" as the only ranking would mean that determining who goes to the SuperBowl is done by looking at which team had the highest average number of points per game that season.

Message edited by author 2004-02-13 09:38:17.

blindjustice

Canon EOS-60D

02/13/2004 04:40:08 AM · #46

Eddy G:

I'm not saying that I don't like your idea. And you do put it forth persuasively. I think that with all the stats there is a way to quantify popularity, just that the subjectivity of the whole craft of photography does not lend itself to a purely objective determination of "the best" like a football match or arm wrestling contest woould. And the rules of the game need to be in place from the begining for the game to be fair..

C-Fox

02/13/2004 05:19:02 AM · #47

There are several choices:
a) Just have the challenge same as the rest and not divide it up (advantage of this is people will not avoid judgeing those whose scores typically are low)
b) Instead of using average score, use persons top score. If only the top score counts towards what category they fit into that would perhaps encourage more experimentation rather then less.

I having thought about it, personally would like open monthly challenges, where everyone is in the same category. One month basic edditing, then next month advanced editting. While the number of pictures for the month would be large, it still is only one more challenge in a month. Plus everyone can get a change to put their best foot forward, and if in one challenge they get a lot of comments about a particular area to work on in their photography they can take a new picture improving those areas and get further feedback.

The only other thing I can think of is the time for voting. If people have 30 days and an open category, chances are it will be fairly large number of entries. A week is not a lot of time to go over those pictures. I would change the voting for the Jan to be all of Feb.

I think this would add another layer of depth to the opertunities to learn here. The speed challenges to work on quickly producing results. The weekly challenges to expand people's horizons in areas they might not have tried without a challenge to excite them. And finally a monthly open challenge to measure there overall progress in their particular favorite subject or style.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

02/13/2004 05:19:22 AM · #48

To be clear, I'm not proposing any sort of rule or scoring change. I'm just proposing a method that could be used for computing a statistic that would encompass the performance of a photographer in all of the challenges they've participated in. Nothing more. It would be "just another stat in your profile", just like "Votes Cast" and "Votes Received".

If I wanted to, I could personally put forth the effort to compute points for everyone here on DPC without any changes to the site at all. I could "data mine" the publicly-available challenge results and publish each user's point standings on my own personal website. There are no "rule changes" necessary to do this. I could even update the point standings weekly as each new challenge result was made available.

But instead of me doing this as an independent "third party", I was simply mentioning the fact that I had come up with this "points" idea in the past, and thought it would be nice to have it integrated into the site. Mostly because I think it would help to recognize the photographers who place highly, but are still chasing the elusive "ribbon" that gets them on the front page.

Message edited by author 2004-02-13 11:19:10.

jrs915

02/29/2004 07:52:49 PM · #49

THANK YOU!!!

smellyfish1002