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01/29/2004 04:10:39 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by LucidLotus:
I always try very hard to give a complete critique, with both bad and good points that I see - this is why my Critique Club ones are rather lengthy.
At the same time, when I mention areas that I personally think could be improved, the language I use is purposefully non-combative and wrapped in a thin layer of fluff. Similar to the premise that 'a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down'.
I don't think I'm softening my stance on what I think is in need of work, I'm merely softening the delivery. |
I used to be that way, and sometimes still am...depending on my mood. The problem is, when I try to be too nice, it takes me a bit longer to write the critique. This makes me feel like I'm wasting my time because who knows if it's falling on deaf ears. Which leads me to your next point.
Originally posted by LucidLotus:
That said.. I find it very interesting that some people, even some who regularly complain that they don't get enough real critiques, have a pattern of only finding those that are complimentary - helpful. In fact, you can see by looking at their helpful vs total comments a pattern of gushing, positive comments being thought of as helpful and any critical (well thought out or not) as not being received in the same manner.
Its a hypocrital stance IMO.. interesting, but hypocrital all the same.
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What you said is so true. People complain about not getting comments and usually the image they're referring to is mediocre at best (imho). If someone constructively criticizes this person's entry, they don't get the ever coveted "useful" checkmark because you didn't praise it in some way shape or form. Heck, even sometimes if you praise it and then criticize it you still don't get the "useful" that you deserve.
I guess this "hypocrital stance" as you put it, is one of the reasons I'm a bit put off by the soft criticizm that I've strived for in the past, and why I'm going to be a bit more direct in the future. Of course I'll still try to maintain my level of tact and decency, but try to cut through the BS and give them some help/encouragement if I feel like I can. |
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01/29/2004 04:20:42 AM · #52 |
I accept constructive comments and welcome them. Most people know if they have posted a "less than perfect " picture and along with this should accept the negative comments.
I have only been here a short while and feel the learning curve is there for the taking,due to the many and varied views on offer,
Just my twopenneth,
Paul. |
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01/29/2004 04:54:50 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by LucidLotus:
...I don't think I'm softening my stance on what I think is in need of work, I'm merely softening the delivery.
That said.. I find it very interesting that some people, even some who regularly complain that they don't get enough real critiques, have a pattern of only finding those that are complimentary - helpful. In fact, you can see by looking at their helpful vs total comments a pattern of gushing, positive comments being thought of as helpful and any critical (well thought out or not) as not being received in the same manner.
Its a hypocrital stance IMO.. interesting, but hypocrital all the same. |
I'm pretty sure that MOST people here are NOT like this though ... why tailor your commenting pattern based on the responses of the minority? When you make the comment, you shouldn't know who's going to read it -- why not make it as good as you can do (like the pictures)?
I find it interesting the commenters get all over a photographer's case for submitting and unfinished, sloppy, poorly thought-out photo. Why is it OK to then leave a similarly sloppy comment? Shouldn't the comment (we know you learn from writing them) have the same kind of thought and care as a photo? How will you get better if don't practice writing them? |
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01/29/2004 05:26:57 AM · #54 |
I often see people saying that their idea of helpful comments are those that include suggestions on contrast, focus, lighting - in short, the technical aspects.
The trouble is that sometimes an image's biggest problem is the lack of appeal of the content itself. For an image to be successful (in a broad sense, i.e. appeal to a broad range of people) it needs to be visually appealing - interesting - aesthetically strong. However you phrase it you gotta have it.
So sometimes, telling someone the image is simply unappealing is the most constructive feedback. Of course it is subjective - but all comments are the subjective opinion of the commenter. The photographer can at least take from the comment that _some_ voters voted low because of the subject matter and it tells them that this is an area that they may want to spend more thought on in the future.
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01/29/2004 05:30:53 AM · #55 |
I try to make my comments count. I don't make a habit of leaving real short comments. If I have a second thought about a photo, I leave a comment. The first thought on a lot of the photos in any challenge is "yawn - 4 - next". Maybe that's a crappy attitude, but a lot of times that's how I feel. I'm not leaving that comment with anyone, honest or not. It is not remotely constructive at all. It is not worth reading or getting someone's hopes up that they got a good comment. I do not do that with Critique Club images. I'll spend a few more minutes to point out good and bad stuff. But for commenting, there are just too many photos to do leave detailed comments.
Bob
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01/29/2004 05:32:20 AM · #56 |
Also, there is a limit to how much of one's time one wants to waste "fluffing" up a negative comment.
I'd rather spend the time I do put into commenting giving feedback to images I really like and also to images I think can be improved BUT do have some merit to them - where I feel the photographer can create a really great images with some minor improvements.
I don't want to waste time telling someone something that I really think they should be able to figure out by themselves (such as the fact that focus is so appalling that one can hardly see what one is looking at or that the composition is so bad that they have chopped off the subject's head or whatever the main flaw is).
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01/29/2004 05:42:21 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I wonder if people really want honest feedback on their pictures.
...
I don't see a way to give honest, critical feedback - any suggestions ? |
I have tried to sugar coat my feedback a bit too much. People will tell you that all they want is honest feedback. What they don't tell you is that they want to feel good about what you tell them at the same time. I find that most people who are specifically looking for feedback already have their own opinion of their work, and generally, they believe that it's good.
On DPC, I have basically stopped giving much negative feedback. People say they want critical feedback, but when I give it, I get argument back in the form of private messages or emails. When someone tells me my opinion of their work is wrong or invalid in some way, it also tells me that they didn't really want to hear my opinion.
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01/29/2004 05:42:43 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Also, there is a limit to how much of one's time one wants to waste "fluffing" up a negative comment... |
It is so simple as to phrase your opinion as your opinion, not the Revealed Manifestation of Ultimate Truth.
I find your subject boring
and not
This subject is boring |
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01/29/2004 06:35:08 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Kavey:
Also, there is a limit to how much of one's time one wants to waste "fluffing" up a negative comment... |
It is so simple as to phrase your opinion as your opinion, not the Revealed Manifestation of Ultimate Truth.
I find your subject boring
and not
This subject is boring |
Your example, to me, isn't fluffing up a comment but simply about the way one presents oneself.
I tend to phrase things that way more often than not BUT I do think people need to appreciate that all comments are ONLY the commenter's opinion. It shouldn't BE necessary to precede everything one writes with "In my opinion" or "I feel" or "I find" since surely that goes without saying.
There's a difference between writing honestly but retaining a polite turn of phrase and fluffing the comment - fluffing it up to me means things like falsely gushing about one aspect to balance the negative comment that was really what came to mind and so forth.
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01/29/2004 09:18:31 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Kavey:
Also, there is a limit to how much of one's time one wants to waste "fluffing" up a negative comment... |
It is so simple as to phrase your opinion as your opinion, not the Revealed Manifestation of Ultimate Truth.
I find your subject boring
and not
This subject is boring |
I was always taught in English classes that this was basically a given.
In this case, its got my name before it, it is a comment that I've written - of course its my opinion. Writing fluff qualifications that should be obvious to anyone who is literate seems pointless at best.
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01/29/2004 09:51:52 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Writing fluff qualifications that should be obvious to anyone who is literate seems pointless at best. |
Couldn't agree more.
As someone suggested a while ago, it would be nice to have some sort of flag for submissions for 'Don't fluff me' or as it was called a "Hit Me" option.
I would comment a LOT more if I didn't have to dress up what I was saying. Further more, I would be more than happy to receive short comments of "Boring", "Out of focus", "Doesn't meet challenge".
SO many times I end up writing:
"I think this could possible do with a little less sharpening."
When what I really want to say is:
"Oversharpened."
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01/29/2004 10:03:08 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by LucidLotus:
...I don't think I'm softening my stance on what I think is in need of work, I'm merely softening the delivery.
That said.. I find it very interesting that some people, even some who regularly complain that they don't get enough real critiques, have a pattern of only finding those that are complimentary - helpful. In fact, you can see by looking at their helpful vs total comments a pattern of gushing, positive comments being thought of as helpful and any critical (well thought out or not) as not being received in the same manner.
Its a hypocrital stance IMO.. interesting, but hypocrital all the same. |
I forget to hit the "this comment was helpful" button all the time and the ratio of helpful to non helpful in no way reflects my opinion. In fact, with about three exceptions, I think everything was helpful - if for no other reason so I can have a better idea of what people like and dislike, whether or not I agree with their opinion.
I just forget to click on it - I am going to go back and fix that now and try to remember in the future - but perhaps there are others like me who simply forget or neglect.
Catherine
C. |
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01/29/2004 11:27:43 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I was always taught in English classes that this was basically a given. |
Of course ... but people don't parse your comment for syntax when they read it -- they react emotionally. I'm just suggesting that SAYING "In my opinion" will have a positive effect on the quality of your communication; even if it "shouldn't" be necessary, that's a reality. Why make a comment you can anticipate the receiver rejecting -- that's more of a waste of your time than phrasing it "nicely" would have been, IMO! |
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01/29/2004 03:48:23 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
It is so simple as to phrase your opinion as your opinion, not the Revealed Manifestation of Ultimate Truth.
I find your subject boring
and not
This subject is boring |
I was always taught in English classes that this was basically a given.
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I disagree.
Partly through cultural perspectives, where directness is not always acceptable, and partly through a more global awareness of how grammar is used, this 'given' is being questioned. This is a good thing.
Leaving the cultural point aside for the moment, let me say that. grammatically, the BE verb is used to show fact/ truth relationships. Of course, it's obvious to many that 'a=b' statments are often simply opinions dressed up as fact, but either or both the dressing up, or the implication of the fact actually has the potential to offend.
If critical thinking has taught us anything, it is the very unstability of facts. Yes, in the past, some English teachers would reiterate the nonsense that 'a=b' statements and opinion statements are discernible due to their content. But these days, this stance has been questioned.
The situation is exacerbated in comments because we don't know who we're dealing with when we write our comment and the general anonymus nature of the internet. We need to exercise more care, not less, here. |
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01/29/2004 04:41:30 PM · #65 |
It isn't due to their content that it is obviously not facts, but opinions. It is obvious, due to the context. Even more so for the reasons you gave.
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01/29/2004 04:44:03 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Why make a comment you can anticipate the receiver rejecting -- that's more of a waste of your time than phrasing it "nicely" would have been, IMO! |
That, if you go back to the original point, was the whole question. I don't think people really want to hear what I think for the pictures I'm meaning.
There isn't a nice fluffy way to say 'I don't think you should have bothered'
If its couched and soften up with 'in my opinion' or not, the message is just the same. I'm left with the general conclusion that I started with, people don't want honest opinions on the pictures that get 1s or 2s, at least in my opinion.
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01/29/2004 05:02:37 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Why make a comment you can anticipate the receiver rejecting -- that's more of a waste of your time than phrasing it "nicely" would have been, IMO! |
That, if you go back to the original point, was the whole question. I don't think people really want to hear what I think for the pictures I'm meaning.
There isn't a nice fluffy way to say 'I don't think you should have bothered'
If its couched and soften up with 'in my opinion' or not, the message is just the same. I'm left with the general conclusion that I started with, people don't want honest opinions on the pictures that get 1s or 2s, at least in my opinion. |
I was taught that the best learning occurred when one made mistakes, had them pointed out, and tried again to get it right. Because of that, I am bothered by your use of the term "shouldn't have bothered" because I don't find any reason to advise them that; I can only tell them that I think their images are personally unappealing or fall towards the lowest end of the quality scale, hopefully with a clue as to why (like composition, focus, whatever).
At an educational site, I don't think it's ever right to tell a student they shouldn't have bothered. |
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01/29/2004 05:14:00 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
At an educational site, I don't think it's ever right to tell a student they shouldn't have bothered. |
Even if its the truth ?
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01/29/2004 06:20:06 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Koriyama:
'not a very good photo lacks interest' is one of the most direct and appropriate comments for many entries here. It tells the challenger exactly why the vote was low. It might not give any idea of how to make it better, but at least that's better than having dozens of comments praising a shot while having a very low score. |
I recieved a comment like this on one of my earlier challenge submissions (No Makeup from the Exposed challenge). This was one of the turning points for me. I started taking a look more at the shot before I hit submit. Did I stop entering any more crappy shots? No, but it did make me look twice at the shots I entered and also helped me to understand why some that I did enter scored low!
Originally posted by Koriyama:
Originality will always be a complex issue here. For some, DPC might be the first place they see water droplets used artistically. Others are very well aware of the limitless potential for image browsing on the net and for copying, adapting and adopting images as the basis for their own entries here. Being told that one's entry is not original may kick the challenger up the proverbial a bit. Happened to me. |
Or it may start ANOTHER thread where someone who is getting very high scores on their shot starts whining about the one or two comments about it NOT being original... This is turning into one of my pet peeves here. You see a thread complaining about comments, challenge ends, thread originator has a ribbon and 2 comments that don't say 'Wow Nice shot!'...
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01/29/2004 06:25:08 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
At an educational site, I don't think it's ever right to tell a student they shouldn't have bothered. |
Even if its the truth ? |
On my audition day to the Guildhall School of Music in London, a young double bassist ran through the foyer crying. At his audition, the professor listened for a few seconds only, then commented that the best thing for the double bass world would be for the young chap never to touch one ever again. (I got in.)
Gordon,
Both context and content, among other factors, can point to opinion, fact, or whatever. In this environment, it's perhaps unwise to leave any ambiguity. |
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01/29/2004 06:59:23 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Koriyama:
On my audition day to the Guildhall School of Music in London, a young double bassist ran through the foyer crying. At his audition, the professor listened for a few seconds only, then commented that the best thing for the double bass world would be for the young chap never to touch one ever again. (I got in.) |
Yes, literature and film have taught me quite a lot about the British educational system. Thanks for reinforcing my point. |
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01/30/2004 04:39:01 AM · #72 |
About the one thing that I have learned in photography over the last couple of years is that knowning when not to take the picture is usually more important than knowing when to.
A large number of the pictures entered here, in my opinion, shouldn't have been taken. If the photographer could learn that they shouldn't have taken it, and why then they might move on to take interesting pictures. However, trying to explain to them how they could have improved a picture that, in my opinion, shouldn't have been taken doesn't serve any useful purpose for me, or them.
But all the replies have convinced me that my original thought was correct - people don't want the truth they want something to make them feel good.
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01/30/2004 04:57:43 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
But all the replies have convinced me that my original thought was correct - people don't want the truth they want something to make them feel good. |
I believe your data and conclusion are projections on your part, and are not completely based in fact. For example, I have marked as "helpful" a large number of rude or critical comments, if I can at least tell that the complainant is talking about MY picture and not "bad" pictures in general.
The fact that I want to promote constructive criticism rather than insults has no bearing on my willing ness or desire to hear "the truth" (direct from the lips of God, I assume). I don't think "feeling good" and hearing honest criticism are mutually exclusive.
Besides, I think maybe what you mean is that some photos should not have been submitted, not that they shouldn't have been taken. Otherwise, those fashion photogs and the folks who shoot 200 rolls for National Geographic in order to get 10 dcent pictures must be REALLY bad. |
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01/30/2004 05:06:15 AM · #74 |
Human nature being what it is..we all would like to read positive comments on our work.It`s only a matter of trying to balance things a little.
No matter how bad the image, if you can find something positive to say before introducing the criticism, it helps sugar the pill and might even make the person take heed of what is said.
Outright, and in some cases downright rude criticisms are likely to produce a negative response and will be very unlikely to to help the recipient.
Gordon |
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01/30/2004 05:13:56 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by geewhy:
Outright, and in some cases downright rude criticisms are likely to produce a negative response and will be very unlikely to to help the recipient. |
I think even a 'you shouldn't have bothered' is better than giving a 1 and running away without explanation.
And who is to say they shouldn't have bothered? Someone has taken the time and effort to shoot a picture - and even if it scored bang on 1 from 200 people it's still an exercise and a learning process.
That is how we learn surely - you can't just read a book then shoot perfect images time after time, you have to take a lot of crap images to learn when to and when not to take a photograph.
So remember some people on here are very new to photography and may be at a different stage to you. I am sure Gordon that you have taken some stinkers in your time - only to realise afterwards that you shouldn't have taken it?
Message edited by author 2004-01-30 10:15:14.
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