1''s and 10''s..revisited - DPChallenge Forums

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

05/11/2002 03:30:19 PM · #26

Hypothetical question: What if there were no numerical votes? What if there were only the comments. Picture it just like it is now through the week comments appear by your picture, just like now, a mix of well thought out ones and more terse ones - only there is NO NUMBER ASSOCIATED WITH IT. Suddenly that changes everything. It all becomes qualitative.

But that's EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE NOW. All you have to do is ignore the numbers. Focus on the comments, and the interaction their. Don't worry that your cup is half empty because some voted but didn't comment. Rather, it's half full. "30 people commented on my photo, woohoo, that's alot of feedback!"

See what I'm saying? : )

You can also already go look at irae's profile after reading his comment, and try to understand where he's coming from, btw.

I would also add that the numbers also provide a useful metric for those that are interested in public perception and 'market research'. It's really not about individual votes anyway, as much as it is about about means and distributions. large sample size tends to diminish the effects of outlier voters anyway, and people's voting patterns are pretty consistent meaning they spread their bias out equally, thereby canceling out their effect. finally, drew has already explained that the votes of those that vote on fewer than 20% of the photos go away anyway, which reduced the effect of spot voting even further.

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/11/2002 7:34:03 PM.

Patella

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

05/11/2002 04:06:00 PM · #27

I'm gonna piggy-back on magnetic's response. Not only do I agree with what he said, but I also have the feeling that if we required comments on 1 or 2 or 9 or 10 votes, people would simply quit voting things 1, 2, 9, or 10 and give something a 3 or an 8. Maybe I'm just a pessimist -- but I'd have to say the ONLY way I see mandatory comments working would be to make them mandatory across the board. And the problem with that is that people would simply stop voting.

While I'd love to know specifically why I got 1 votes on my stuff, I'd really rather not make the commenting mandatory at all.

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/11/2002 8:41:50 PM.

irae

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 I

05/11/2002 04:34:33 PM · #28

Okay... I've changed my mind. Sorry, Hokie. (check out photoblink.com)

05/11/2002 05:06:46 PM · #29

I will just say that what I want to see happen here and what will happen here are probably worlds apart.

I'm probably just ticked off at the Butthead mentality that affects every corner of the internet and got a little pissed when I was reviewing some of the past challenges and saw so many 1's and inane comments on some extremely high quality photo's.

It just struck me wrong and I am not sure there is much you can do about it with the current format. It would require a more restricted voting system and limiting casual web-surfer voting.

I realize that that a more restricted format may be what I would like but most folks here like it the way it is.

Just so everyone is clear that my frustration came from reviewing past challenges and photos multiplied by some recent comments and DQ's.

magnetic9999

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

05/12/2002 07:09:25 AM · #30

It does affect every corner of the internet, which, after all, is an ultra-microcosm of society, with even more open access for all. But that just makes it easier to ignore, IMO. My analogy is that there is this signal-to-noise ratio on the internet, this constant background static, just like the background static of the universe that they hear when listening with radio telescopes.

If you've never been there, check out the site Am I Hot or Not (www.hotornot.com). it's a site where you can upload a photo of yourself, and then people give it a 1 to 10. You can see everyone's rating, and your own if you've submitted a pic (yeah, I'll cop to it, I tried it). On your own pic you can see the vote distribution. THe thing is that you'll see all these perfectly attractive people ,and they'll be like a 4 or a 3. on your own picture, no matter who you are, you'll get almost more 1's and 2's then any other number. I think that they finally resorted to some kind of numerical statistical algorithm to correct for these bottom-heavy voting patterns. Where does it all come from? Who knows. But Who cares? It's part of the background noise, and therefore it's irrelevant.

05/12/2002 09:02:25 AM · #31

Mag....I agree about the background noise etc...

It's funny but the "background noise" population seem more into the mundane button pushing, bottom feeding, the-whole-world-is crap kind of thinking than maybe just reaching for that one bit of excellence that they might achieve.

But there is a part of the human phyche that feels like "if I can't succeed I will jut drag everyone around me down".

I call those people the vampire's of society. They suck the energy from you with their constant "everything sucks unless it directly pertains to me".

I even succumb to this kind of thinking as I am in constant contact with people in my job and it just washes over you.

Anyway, I have gotten my sugar and caffeine levels back under control and will fall back into my "worry about my corner of the world" kind of thing. :-)

timj351

Sony DSC-F707

05/12/2002 10:52:06 AM · #32

I would be concerned about the voting only if I felt that a lot of winners were undeserved but that is not what I am seeing. The winners all seem pretty deserved to me so I think we are doing something right with the voting as it is.

I have another thought, though in regards to comments. What if the names were turned back on with the comments but when you leave a comment then that vote is locked in and can't be changed? This way I could have a discussion with the person who left a comment without thinking that I might be influencing them into changing their vote. I think this could work because if you leave a comment then you have obviously put enough thought into your vote athat it doesn't need to be changed. I just miss having the ability to discuss things with specific voters during the week of the challenge. If it has to wait until the next week by then I am focussed on that challenge and I dont tend to care very much for the last challenge. What do you guys think? I wonder if this should be a seperate thread.

Tim

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

05/12/2002 03:26:05 PM · #33

Tim...

I feel exactly like you regarding discusiing current photos.

Often times no one is interested in talking about a photo AFTER that particular challenge has passed. The new vote and the challenge we are trying to make new photographs for get all the attention.

I would agree that if we could lock in the vote after a comment so we coud have more open discussion about the current vote that would be cool.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

05/12/2002 03:47:55 PM · #34

I don't like the idea about locking in a vote... I often adjust my votes after a photo has had time to grow on me a little...

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/12/2002 04:41:50 PM · #35

I think we wre referring to locking a vote AFTER a comment.

Meaning you could vote, re-vote , and re-vote till you got everthing the way you wanted then, through some function like a lock in button or just make a comment then it locks your vote it opens up tha ability to e-mail people.

I don't know if I like locking or not but I was just agreeing that more discussions occur over the current photos to be voted on and the upcoming challenge than photos that have passed by.

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/12/2002 8:42:44 PM.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/12/2002 04:42:23 PM · #36

Another potential task for the sadistic statistics guru:

How about having a "voter" rating, showing how close a particular voter comes to matching the average score.
That would let everyone know whether a particular voter has consistently reasonable scores or is often in marked disagreement with the majority.

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/12/2002 8:43:03 PM.

chariot

Olympus C-3030Z

05/12/2002 04:42:28 PM · #37

Originally posted by timj351:
I have another thought, though in regards to comments. What if the names were turned back on with the comments but when you leave a comment then that vote is locked in and can't be changed? This way I could have a discussion with the person who left a comment without thinking that I might be influencing them into changing their vote. I think this could work because if you leave a comment then you have obviously put enough thought into your vote athat it doesn't need to be changed. I just miss having the ability to discuss things with specific voters during the week of the challenge. If it has to wait until the next week by then I am focussed on that challenge and I dont tend to care very much for the last challenge. What do you guys think? I wonder if this should be a seperate thread.

First of all, it takes me about 3 days to do all the voting. Once I'm done I go back and look at all the voting I've done and adjust scores accordingly. I don't feel comfortable with anyone messaging me about a comment I made while voting is still in progress. After the week is over I don't mind discussing my comments. Have we been watching to much MTV to be able to carry thoughts from one week to the next? One idea to satisfy you though would be to add a button to the voting page where someone can say they are finished voting. Then once they click on this button their names will appear on all comments they made. You can put that into the "Web Site Suggestion" forum if you like.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/13/2002 05:21:41 AM · #38

Originally posted by GeneralE:
Another potential task for the sadistic statistics guru:

How about having a "voter" rating, showing how close a particular voter comes to matching the average score.
That would let everyone know whether a particular voter has consistently reasonable scores or is often in marked disagreement with the majority

Sounds good to me.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/13/2002 06:23:43 AM · #39

Something similar was suggested in another thread.

Another thing which would help analyze whether current votes are "meaningful" would be to display/have access to the little vote distribution graph which accompanies the final results, instead of just the mean (sic) average.

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/13/2002 10:24:35 AM.

iban

Kodak LS443

05/13/2002 08:01:30 AM · #40

people here complain so much...

I always give a comment of a score of 9 or 10 (which is very rare). Most average pics that don't really stick out to me get a 3 or 4, and there are usually so many bad pics that I either don't want to comment on them, or I don't want to be banned for saying that I don't like the pic.

05/13/2002 09:14:24 AM · #41

If you think there are so many bad pics and you aren't contributing, why bother with the site at all?

Remie

Nikon D70

05/13/2002 10:12:33 AM · #42

And in a rating-system from 1 to 10, average is 5 or 6, NOT 3 or 4.

ryano

Casio Exilim EX-Z3

05/13/2002 10:35:24 AM · #43

If you think there are so many bad pics and you aren't contributing, why bother with the site at all?

You don't have to make music or paint in order to comment on whether you feel something is good or bad. I think the ones who don't like it, or can't take it, are the ones who should leave.

05/13/2002 10:43:15 AM · #44

He is the one complaining about how bad the pictures are. I didn't say he should leave, I just don't understand what he gets out of the site. Also, why do you feel you need to fight this guy's battle? I was asking what I thought was a legitimate question and I am waiting to hear his answer, not yours.

clay

Kodak DC215

05/13/2002 10:54:56 AM · #45

iban is mentally disabled so we do try to help him out with his responses

05/13/2002 10:58:58 AM · #46

I'm sure he appreciates you saying that Clay. Not! :')

magnetic9999