EOS flash system questions - DPChallenge Forums

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

12/18/2006 04:30:41 AM · #1

I do a lot of in-home family and/or child portraits. I have:

Canon 420ex
Canon 430ex
Canon ST-E2
2 umbrellas with stands

Typically, I shoot one flash at the ceiling, and one flash into an umbrella (1:1 ratio). This seems to work for me. The following are the issues I'm having:

1 - The flash recycle time is TOO SLOW. Children move quickly and cry often, waiting 3 to 5 full seconds after each shot is too much. I use rechargable batteries, but recently tried energizers which didn't seem to help much. I believe I'm over working the flash units. I shoot at iso 100 and either f5.6 or f8 (again, children don't sit still, so I feel more depth is important). I also shoot at the max shutter - 1/200.

I could boost the iso to 400 and the set the shutter at 1/60, but of course my fear is slight noise and child movement.

2 - The "line of sight" system for triggering the flashes SUCKS. If the umbrella is in front of the camera, or if someone is standing in front of the flash pointing at the ceiling (parents and whatnot), I have problems. As far as I know, pocket wizards only work with flashes that have a PC plug? And the "corded" EOS system states that it isn't compatible with digital SLR's.

I don't wish to buy studio strobes at this time.

Thanks in advance for any and all insight into these problems.

Message edited by author 2006-12-18 09:31:26.

fotomann_forever

12/18/2006 04:54:44 AM · #2

You could go ISO 200 without introducing much noise. Changing your shutter speed isn't going to affect anything other than add more ambient light into the scene.

If you had a flash meter, you could go non-TTL, turn the flashes down to half-power and set you aperture accordingly. Another option is to use reflecting umbrellas on both flashes. This would be more efficient than bouncing off the cieling or through an umbrella.

I know you said you don't want to buy studio strobes at the time, but you could consider replacing one flash with a strobe and then use on-camera flash bounced for fill.

scarbrd

Leica M10

12/18/2006 04:56:01 AM · #3

The 580EX is much more powerfull and will recycle faster. I think it is a bit optimistic to expect the 420/430 to act as studio strobes in the way you are working.

I have a 420 and a 580 and often use them in the same way you do. But when you need some serious light, there is nothing better than the real thing. I have a 400WS 3 light Novatron kit. It is more than enough for what I need and portable.

I've had it for years so i don't know the price these days, but I'll bet for the price of a couple of 580s you could find a decent light kit.

12/18/2006 05:00:31 AM · #4

You could look at using recharable battery packs to get a faster recycle time.

Pocket wizards will work with canon flashes, you just need to get a hot-shoe adaptor-> PC connector. You can't usefully use the 420EX with a pocket wizard though, no manual settings and pocket wizards don't do TTL.

Though trying to use small flash units at f8 and above in a studio is always going to be pushing what they are capable of, particularly if you want to fire them off frequently.

12/18/2006 05:24:14 AM · #5

thanks everyone

I'll be buying a new house this summer. I want to wait and see what we get for a house before I buy studio equipment (big room, small room, no room, 2 car garage).

Leroy, the umbrella i use is bounced (white, not silver), not shoot thru. Perhaps silver liner would help as well.

Gordon, only the 550 and 580 are battery pack compatible (and one 580 with battery pack is like $800.00)

seems i'm looking at f4, 1/80, and iso 200 for a while :(

12/18/2006 05:26:02 AM · #6

Originally posted by hopper:

Yup, the battery packs aren't cheap.

A silver umbrella will give a bit more light than a white one, but you'll get more specular highlights from it.

The other thing you can try is moving the light sources closer to your subjects. Obvious problems with working distance etc though.

Spork99

Canon EOS R8

Canon RF 16mm F2.8 STM

12/18/2006 05:45:27 AM · #7

A silver umbrella will generally give you another 1/3 to 1/2 stop.

I wouldn't lower your shutter speed, all that will do is increase the chance that movement will cause unwanted blur. It doesn't have any effect on the flash exposure anyway, but only increases the ambient light portion of the exposure.

There are other battery powered options, but they are pricy.

FWIW, with my strobe setup, on 1/4 power, with 2 umbrellas and 1:1 lighting I get f13 and a <1sec recycle time.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

12/18/2006 06:02:29 AM · #8

(glances at wallet ... starts to cry)

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

FWIW, with my strobe setup, on 1/4 power, with 2 umbrellas and 1:1 lighting I get f13 and a <1sec recycle time.

Telehubbie

Canon EOS-40D

12/18/2006 06:16:10 AM · #9

I use a Quantum Turbo battery with my 580ex into an umbrella, and the recycle times are about a second. Don't know if the 430 takes external power though. Ya, they're pricey, about $400 plus another $50 for the flash cord. The Turbo 2x2 is newer and lets you power 2 flashes, but I don't know if they even make flash cords that will stretch far enough to be useable.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

12/18/2006 06:26:14 AM · #10

Originally posted by hopper:

(glances at wallet ... starts to cry)

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
FWIW, with my strobe setup, on 1/4 power, with 2 umbrellas and 1:1 lighting I get f13 and a <1sec recycle time.

though, the main problem I've had with strobes was getting the light levels low enough to be able to shoot wide open - just depends on what you are trying to do.

Sounds like though, for kids, with good DoF and moving targets, that strobes with wireless remotes would be the way to go.

hankk

Canon EOS-5D

12/18/2006 06:36:13 AM · #11

1. the 580 is about twice as powerful as the 420 (GN 58m vs 42m) and will recycle faster from full power shots. But a full power shot on a 430 would be about a half power shot on a 580, so the cycle time will be even faster, and you can shoot before the flash is fully charged.

2. If you use a 580 as the master (pointed toward the ceiling) you may get more distance than with the ST-E2 because the 580 uses the main flashtube to convey flash info and commands.

3. If you buy two 580s, you can still use your 430 and 420, so you'd have about six times the light output you have now.

12/18/2006 06:37:16 AM · #12

yup .. also, i've read many places about photographers using 2 or 3 stop neutral density filters to keep things shallow while using strobes

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by hopper:
(glances at wallet ... starts to cry)

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
FWIW, with my strobe setup, on 1/4 power, with 2 umbrellas and 1:1 lighting I get f13 and a <1sec recycle time.

though, the main problem I've had with strobes was getting the light levels low enough to be able to shoot wide open - just depends on what you are trying to do.

Sounds like though, for kids, with good DoF and moving targets, that strobes with wireless remotes would be the way to go.

12/18/2006 06:40:28 AM · #13

this was my original plan ... especially with websites like the strobist. But it seems that EVERYONE eventually buys strobes - so perhaps i should just look ahead to that.

thanks for the input

Originally posted by hankk:

3. If you buy two 580s, you can still use your 430 and 420, so you'd have about six times the light output you have now.

12/18/2006 06:44:54 AM · #14

Originally posted by hopper:

this was my original plan ... especially with websites like the strobist. But it seems that EVERYONE eventually buys strobes - so perhaps i should just look ahead to that.

It's a question of using what is appropriate for the amount of light you need and the time you have to set it up.

The strobist stuff is perfect for on-location work with shallow DoF and mixing in available light.

In a formal studio setting, with a need for good depth of field and with handy power supplies, strobes are the way to go. But again there, if you have a small room or want to have some aperture control, don't buy 1600W strobes. You might also be able to rent lights and/or a kitted out studio if you only need these on occasion.

but if you need to light a huge space or lots of people, don't get low powered strobes - pick the amount of light for what you need and go for it.

Message edited by author 2006-12-18 11:45:21.

Spork99

Canon EOS R8

Canon RF 16mm F2.8 STM

12/18/2006 07:56:00 AM · #15

Originally posted by Gordon:

If I want to shoot wide open or nearly so, it's easy enough to do with just the modelling lights. Especially since my strobes keep the light ratio of the modelling light the same as the strobes. Just have to remember to use the correct WB.

12/18/2006 08:40:11 AM · #16

what is the w/s of a 430ex flash, or 580ex? ... i can't find this info