For those of you who in management...

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

12/20/2005 04:25:17 AM · #1

Upon offering an employee a wage increase, have they ever negotiated that the raise be forfeited and that they be granted extra weeks of vacation instead?

If so, did they receive an extra week of vacation for each extra week's worth of increased wages that were offered?

idnic

Canon EOS-60D

12/20/2005 04:28:59 AM · #2

I've had employees try to negotiate a higher wage increase, but our corporate policy was very specific about seniority and vacation times so that wasn't negotiable. And shouldn't be in my opinion. Additional paid time off is something earned with dedication and time served.

CEJ

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

12/20/2005 04:30:45 AM · #3

Interesting question...I recently had an experience such as this. One of the plants I work in has a second plant affiliated with it that is a union facility (I hate unions) and last month when I was negotiating the new contract with the union, in lieu of a pay raise they opted for more vacation instead. Wasn't expecting that at all. After reviewing the production requirements for the plant, I decided it was probably better in the long run. So all union employees got an additional week vacation which is tacked on to the planned plant closure every year. So now instead of one week shutdown, we have two which the salaried employees benefit from as well.

Message edited by author 2005-12-20 09:32:00.

12/20/2005 04:32:25 AM · #4

Vacation time is actually more expensive than wages. When an employee is absent (vacation), then the employer not only is compensating the absent employee, but also is required to have someone else do the work that is not being done. In some cases it is simply placed on someone already on the payroll (typically a co-worker familiar with the task(s)), however, risk of a mistake or other oversight is increased, which ultimately reduces profit. In other cases, temporary workers are hired to offset the vacationing employee, which itself has costs in their wages and learning curve (productivity) for the employer.

12/20/2005 04:33:22 AM · #5

Originally posted by idnic:

Additional paid time off is something earned with dedication and time served.

Sure, so is a wage increase.

As for unions, we're not unionized and I'm in Management myself. My negotiations are with the vice president of the company so there are no 'rules'...just hoping to collect experiences. I know, for example, that I could negotiate to have a laptop expensed as well as a few other things. I'm a valuable employee and increased vacation time may be the difference between me staying here (and being able to pursue photographic projects on the side) or quitting and going to school.

I know a "more-than-cost-of-living" wage increase is coming in the new year and I'm at 3.5 weeks vacation now...I'd like 6.5 weeks.

I'd love to hear more opinions in light of the context I presented.

Message edited by author 2005-12-20 09:35:07.

robs

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

12/20/2005 04:43:55 AM · #6

I have worked places you could do this up to a limit - although not in the US. Most had a formula that they use based on x% of pay for an extra week and you could sacrifice so much pay for more time off. It was certainly not equal since vacation time is more expensive for them - fair enough. Not a bad option but I doubt most employers in the US will deal with that given the lack of flexibility all the ones I have seen with time off.

Edit: Sprelling.

Message edited by author 2005-12-20 09:45:15.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

12/20/2005 04:46:42 AM · #7

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

I'm at 3.5 weeks vacation now...I'd like 6.5 weeks.

Your profile lists your age at 25. Unless you began at a very young age (say age 10) it is unlikely you have more than 4-5 years with this company. Typical vacation time for 4-5 years seniority is 1-2 weeks. You are currently at 3.5 which is very good, IMO. 20 years seniority would get one around 4-5 weeks. 6.5 weeks is approximately 40 days vacation. That truly is alot, at least in the US manufacturing world. When potential sick days are included (up to 5 per year), you have a very lucrative time off policy. Your higher seniority co-workers may have a bit of concern over your "benefit" if it is signifcantly different than theirs.

rscorp

Nikon D70

12/20/2005 04:46:55 AM · #8

Usually I just say "Let me hear another sound from you, and you'll keep your Christmas by losing your situation!" and they give up and walk away.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

12/20/2005 04:49:40 AM · #9

Depends on how flexible your company is and how big they are. Where I work now vacation is set in stone and based on time with the company. It wouldn't even be possible to do it.

I negotiated an extra week of vacation before accepting a job once after they said they couldn't increase the pay anymore, so it does happen.

3.5 weeks is pretty good, 6.5 weeks is a lot. Personally I wouldn't give it, but that's just me.

Message edited by author 2005-12-20 09:51:25.

cmeier

12/20/2005 04:51:26 AM · #10

Where I work, salary increases are provided as a reward for good service, an incentive to stay and a recognition of increased responsibilities. Your company clearly recognizes your value. But suggesting that you want to work less doesn't necessarily send the right signal about your interest in career advancement.

As well, while salary increases are relatively invisible to your coworkers (unless you spend it all on bling bling), your extended vacations will be very conspicuous, and most managers would seek to avoid that, I think.

That said, your negotiating position is significantly elevated if you have other alternatives and your employers know it. Presumably you could feel out your VP about the possibility before making a demand...

12/20/2005 04:54:47 AM · #11

I have been with the company just over eight years (since I was 17), working my way up from a store clerk to Category Manager in Merchandising at the head office.

I have 3 weeks plus 3 'personal days'...technically at 12 years seniority I would go up to 4 weeks vacation.

6 weeks would be a very long time, but like I said...it could be a make or break situation for me as I want to go to school for photojournalism but if I could do more documentary projects on the side while still keeping my job I would rather do that. In order to do these projects I would need about 6-8 weeks of vacation each year.

My company is flexible, but I agree that others with more seniority (there are only a few in my department) would frown upon it. But like I said, it might be the difference between them keeping or losing me.

12/20/2005 04:56:39 AM · #12

Originally posted by cmeier:

Great insight, good points! Thanks everyone, keep those opinions coming!

Also, keep in mind that my job is to negotiate every day and the VP knows that. I don't think he would take great offense at my attempt to negotiate more vacation time.

Canon EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

12/20/2005 04:59:18 AM · #13

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

I6 weeks would be a very long time, but like I said...it could be a make or break situation for me as I want to go to school for photojournalism but if I could do more documentary projects on the side while still keeping my job I would rather do that. In order to do these projects I would need about 6-8 weeks of vacation each year.

Perhaps tuition assistance would be a more lucrative approach with an understanding that various times would be required to be "away" from work due to class load/assignments. You could use vacation time initially then use some from of comp time for the remaining time off needs. Your employer benefits and so do you.

CEJ

Canon EOS-40D

12/20/2005 05:02:33 AM · #14

Originally posted by Flash:

but also is required to have someone else do the work that is not being done.

Where do you get this from? If someone is out for any reason there is nothing that says I am required to have someone else perform that person's duties. If it is something that is needed, yes, someone else would be assigned the tasks. But nothing says that if a janitor is out I am required to have his work performed by someone else. Same is true for any manager, supervisor, or production employee. I don't understand this reasoning.

Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM

12/20/2005 05:03:36 AM · #15

Originally posted by Flash:

I'm not sure I understand...if I go to school, I wouldn't be able to continue working...

Skip

Canon EOS-1D X

12/20/2005 05:08:31 AM · #16

Originally posted by idnic:

Additional paid time off is something earned with dedication and time served.

i grew up being told that the reward for doing a good job was being allowed to keep it ;-)

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

12/20/2005 05:11:44 AM · #17

If you are in a position to negotiate then go for it.

The main issue here is do you want a tangible raise or non-tangible raise. In business Time = Money so it will cost the company. And if they are willing to negotiate great.

Here is what you need to take in account.
How much do you get paid a year. For example sake lets say $20,000. Your company offers you a $2000 a year raise(10%) but you would rather negotiate 3 additional weeks off. $20,000 a year = $384.62 a week so if you take the 3 weeks off then your raise was lower than the companies offer ($2000 raise vs. $1153.85 in time off). So you would have to decide is the time a better value than the raise. And that will have to be a personal choice.

Bebe

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

12/20/2005 05:12:28 AM · #18

I've negotiated 2 extra weeks vacation in exchange for a salary cut (or, rather, lack of a salary increase) for a job here in the U.S. - although it was with a small company that is fairly flexible. Also, I wasn't working out of the head office, so it was slightly less conspicuous.

Go for it! When you pitch it, make sure you have a plan for how whatever job you do will be covered while you're gone. If I was in management (and I have been in the past), I'd definitely be interested in hearing about someone's outside interests and in helping them meet their dreams. I think that well-rounded employees with interesting lives outside the company keep the business a vibrant place to be.

Spork99

Canon EOS R8

Canon RF 16mm F2.8 STM

12/20/2005 05:16:20 AM · #19

I say go for it, all they can do is refuse. I know that extra vacation is often offered when recruiting an experienced candidate. Say, someone who has been with a company long enough to have more than the typical 2 weeks. They may be reluctant to give up that extra week of vacation to come work here, so if we offer an additional week, they may not be so reluctant.

We can also purchase time off here, I have not participated in this program, but my understanding is that your paycheck is simply reduced over the remiander of the year to pay for the extra time. An employee can buy up to the amount of vacation they are allotted, so, since I have 3 weeks, I can buy another three weeks.

Vacation is just another form of compensation, like salary & benefits. There's no reason not to ask for more.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

12/20/2005 05:17:57 AM · #20

Originally posted by skiprow:

Originally posted by idnic:
Additional paid time off is something earned with dedication and time served.

i grew up being told that the reward for doing a good job was being allowed to keep it ;-)

Sounds like me. My first job was bagging groceries at a locally owned store but because of there loyalty to the customers they retained more business than the large chain stores at that time in our town.

I will never forget at age 15 on my first interview I was told "Don't expect to be rewarded for what you are expected to do". I have always remembered that.

Message edited by author 2005-12-20 10:18:47.

12/20/2005 05:18:57 AM · #21

Originally posted by Alienyst:

Originally posted by Flash:
but also is required to have someone else do the work that is not being done.

Where do you get this from? If someone is out for any reason there is nothing that says I am required to have someone else perform that person's duties. If it is something that is needed, yes, someone else would be assigned the tasks. But nothing says that if a janitor is out I am required to have his work performed by someone else. Same is true for any manager, supervisor, or production employee. I don't understand this reasoning.

1. If the person is an employee, then they have job responsibilities.
2. If the employee is absent, then those responsibilities are either not being performed or are being done by someone else.
3. If the responsibilities are not being done, and the employer does not need them done, then why are they employing the employee that they do not need?

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

12/20/2005 05:20:53 AM · #22

Originally posted by SDW65:

Here is what you need to take in account.
How much do you get paid a year. For example sake lets say $20,000. Your company offers you a $2000 a year raise(10%) but you would rather negotiate 3 additional weeks off. $20,000 a year = $384.62 a week so if you take the 3 weeks off then your raise was lower than the companies offer ($2000 raise vs. $1153.85 in time off). So you would have to decide is the time a better value than the raise. And that will have to be a personal choice.

Other than the actual dollar amounts, this example is right on. I believe that my increase will be about 10-12% and I would like an additional 3-4 weeks vacation time in lieu of the increase.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

12/20/2005 05:21:39 AM · #23

If you are being paid hourly, give yourself the extra vacation time. I used to do that by figuring out how many days of work the raise was worth and then took unpaid leave for those days. Both I and the company benefitted - they paid me less (technically) and I got my extra vacation days.

Spork99

Canon EOS R8

Canon RF 16mm F2.8 STM

12/20/2005 05:22:55 AM · #24

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by Flash:

Perhaps tuition assistance would be a more lucrative approach with an understanding that various times would be required to be "away" from work due to class load/assignments. You could use vacation time initially then use some from of comp time for the remaining time off needs. Your employer benefits and so do you.

I'm not sure I understand...if I go to school, I wouldn't be able to continue working...

Some companies will pay for your part-time education if you continue to work. Many tuition reimbursement programs are limited to degrees related to the employees job. As an engineer, I can get classes paid for if I want to get my PhD in Engineering, but not if I want to go study Photography or Art History.

Also, some programs have penalties if you leave the company. Here, if you leave within 2 years, of your last class, you have to the repay the company for those classes you took within that 2 year window.