| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/07/2005 08:50:13 AM · #1 |
Ok, this makes the third time I have tried to have these words discussed, but they keep getting lost in the original "Industral Nude" thread.
I felt they needed their own thread, so here goes.
The following thoughts are a reaction to the discussion of this image and why it got a low score.
But, this is only one example! Please try not to make your discussion of the following center around this image. That is not my intent. The idea is to have some discussion about what is or is not flawed about the present voting system--not this image.
Originally posted by hokie:
I am not usually somebody that says one thing or another about how someone else votes however...
Anybody who voted less than a 5 on this photo should not be allowed to vote any longer at this site. If photos like this are rated "below average" I just don't see the incentive to even participate here for people trying to do anything of extra-ordinary work. |
Yep.
Seriously, the voting system of this site is deeply flawed. It's not really anyones fault, either, its just the way it is. I'm sure D and L have done what they can to account for "troll" voting, but there is nothing in place to prevent "bad" voting.
And people, we got a lot bad voting going on.
I think we should have to earn the right to vote around here. It should be a privilege, not a right. I would rather have 50 thoughtful votes than 300 mindless ones. And I believe such a move could go a long way towards making this a more constructive place to learn as well.
Give anyone the ability to comment, but only let folks that have exhibited some degree of photographic and artistic competence carry the right to vote.
This has been discussed before I'm sure. But I missed those threads. If someone could point them out I would be most grateful. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 08:57:46 AM · #2 |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't part of the appeal of this site the vast array of different cultures/skill levels/opinions? I don't care how complex your voting algorithm is, it will never be able to account for the one thing we all strive to appeal to on this site. Personal taste.
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:00:27 AM · #3 |
I think to say that just because someone gave it a score like 1 or 2 or 3 is a bad vote is being very general. I did comment on the shot and expressed my feelings. So after that if I voted it a 1, how is that a 'bad' vote? I didn't like the image. I don't feel it fit well within the challenge. I don't like the background. Her expression to me is funny, etc., etc. If I find so much displeasing, how is that a bad vote? Aren't I, as well as everyone else, entitled to their opinion?
How about we stop making threads about voting and such, and concentrate on photography? Isn't that what this site is about?
And as evidenced by my average vote cast, I don't give out too many low votes.
I don't think there is a morality problem or a decline in competent voting. Just more people complaining about their preception of the idea of it existing. I resent being lumped in a group you call 'incompetent voters' or 'immoral voters.'
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 14:06:28. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:17:13 AM · #4 |
I think I'd also like to mention bad shoppers. Who wouldn't want to buy that green/orange turtleneck sweater! And bad cooks too. Who the heck uses chicken anyway? While We're at it, bad kids, you know, the ones who don't like Freddy Krueger. I was thinking about all the bad cats, I mean, c'mon who wants a cat, that's what dogs are for.
Just because someone doesn't like something, you really shouldn't call their opinion 'bad'. How can the voting system be 'flawed'? You click on your opinion and move on. Seems about as easy and fair as it gets.
You know, some people can't stand chocolate and icecream either. Doesn't mean that they are 'bad' or that their opinion means less than someone elses.
For the record, I didn't vote, but wouldn't have scored that image high either. She looks fake, and as someone else mentioned, the look on her face is odd...looks like she smelled a fart.
Less than 1% gave the photo a 1, so what? 23 people didn't like it. I'm sure those 23 people are sitting aroung saying 'how in the heck could someone give that photo a 10?'
Which really only means that people have different opinions. I say deal with it.
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 14:17:29. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:17:24 AM · #5 |
Palmetto_Pixels and Alienyst, from your viewpoints of personal taste you are exactly right. You should be free to vote as you feel.
I disagree.
I feel ANY vote that is based solely on personal taste is a destructive one. It undermines the creativity of the artist and dilutes the worth of this site.
As to how how productive it is... I obviously feel its worth pursuing whereas you do not. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:20:16 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
Palmetto_Pixels and Alienyst, from your viewpoints of personal taste you are exactly right. You should be free to vote as you feel.
I disagree.
I feel ANY vote that is based solely on personal taste is a destructive one. It undermines the creativity of the artist and dilutes the worth of this site.
As to how how productive it is... I obviously feel its worth pursuing whereas you do not. |
Well, it would help to know that if you tossed that photo out for sale, how many people would be interested in buying it and how many people would walk away from your display if that photo were there. The voters are the general public. If I were selling my work, I would definatley want to know what people 'liked'. No matter how technically awesome a photo is, if it offends someone, they're not going to buy it. That is VERY helpful information in my opinion.
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 14:20:49. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:23:14 AM · #7 |
This site is definitely not set up for "thoughtful" voting. With 300+ entries per challenge, many people who vote are largely going on first impression, mass appeal, eye candy.
As a participant you have to be willing to go with this, to shoot mainstream conventional popular stuff *OR* be willing to do what you want and not freak out everytime the score isn't what you deserve. You have to understand how wide the audience is. How voters are different genders, nationalities, religions, and vary in education. They all aren't going to like the same subjects you do. In addition, many voters know almost *nothing* about photography other than what they like.
Step back a look at how unimportant this is, a virtual ribbon. It's meaningless. Shoot for you. Vote on images with the same thought you'd like your images to receive (I personally never manage to vote more than the minimum 20%. I just don't have time to vote the way I want to on more than that.) Have fun with the site for what it is but don't let it define what a good photo is, because it can't do that.
(I throw around the word "you" a lot in this post but half the time I'm talking to myself. Believe me, I go through phases of being misunderstood and unappreciated around here. I think I'm finally getting to the point where I just don't care how I score anymore.)
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 14:25:27. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:24:44 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Well, it would help to know that if you tossed that photo out for sale, how many people would be interested in buying it and how many people would walk away from your display if that photo were there. The voters are the general public. If I were selling my work, I would definatley want to know what people 'liked'. No matter how technically awesome a photo is, if it offends someone, they're not going to buy it. That is VERY helpful information in my opinion. |
EXACTLY!
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:29:17 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
... I feel ANY vote that is based solely on personal taste is a destructive one. It undermines the creativity of the artist and dilutes the worth of this site. ... |
You want your cake and eat it too? If you want to foster "creative" photography of the "artist" then you have to accept the kind of reaction that a real artist is going to get, and that is a personal reaction. Either the viewer likes it or doesn't. Personal taste and artist creativity are forever going to be linked and does nothing to undermine the artist.
Now if the reaction to the "art" is severe enough it can also impact the way the viewer sees or doesn't see the technical merits of an image. That's all part of the game or equation here...
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:30:15 AM · #10 |
Since when is the salabilty an indication of a photos worth?
And how is it possible that any camera carrying grandma is qualified to vote on the technical and artistic merits of a photo? They can certainly do what they do now, express their feelings, but that does not necessarily make them good, informed voters.
I can see that the site is too far gone for me to help, though. I feel for the photographers that must go through the struggle of dealing with the morality of this site, but at least its comforting to know that they will grow in that struggle as I have.
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:31:05 AM · #11 |
Posted this in the other thread, but think it goes better here.
I do get tired of being told my opinions are wrong and I shouldn't be allowed to vote because my definition of what makes a good photo, or what meets a challenge, is different than someone else's. (Not that anyone has said this to me personally, but I am often on the "opposing" side of outside the box, nudity is art, people are ignorant if they voted x picture less than 5, etc. thinkers.) My opinions are as valid as anyone's, and what I choose to define as art should be left up to me.
After reading this thread, I would like to know--if I can't use my opinions to determine my vote, what am I supposed to use? What is a "thoughtful" vote? Some just don't evoke any emotion or interest no matter how much time spent looking at it.
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:31:20 AM · #12 |
| Perhaps a juried competition would be more to your liking. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:32:09 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
... I can see that the site is too far gone for me to help, though. I feel for the photographers that must go through the struggle of dealing with the morality of this site, but at least its comforting to know that they will grow in that struggle as I have. |
Thanks for putting that burden on your shoulders. Must be a heavy load. ;^)
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:33:09 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
And how is it possible that any camera carrying grandma is qualified to vote on the technical and artistic merits of a photo? |
Now you watch it there, don't you go insulting grandmas - I'm not one yet, but I'm hoping, and I could be one.
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:39:20 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by mcmurma:
And how is it possible that any camera carrying grandma is qualified to vote on the technical and artistic merits of a photo? |
Now you watch it there, don't you go insulting grandmas - I'm not one yet, but I'm hoping, and I could be one. |
Does that go for camera carrying grandpa's too?
Because if by that you're implying that I'm too uptight to judge fairly, I'll never let you borrow my whips or my handcuffs!!!
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:40:15 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
And how is it possible that any camera carrying grandma is qualified to vote on the technical and artistic merits of a photo? They can certainly do what they do now, express their feelings, but that does not necessarily make them good, informed voters.
I can see that the site is too far gone for me to help, though. I feel for the photographers that must go through the struggle of dealing with the morality of this site, but at least its comforting to know that they will grow in that struggle as I have. |
Why are your opinions on art correct, and a camera carrying grandma's wrong? Maybe you are wrong, and what you think is an informed vote would be different if you only had the grandma's experiences and knowledge to use when judging.
No photographer has to deal with the morality of this site--no one is forced to participate. And what, may I ask, is wrong with morality anyway? I, for one, do not want your help and think the site is just fine as it is. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:43:32 AM · #17 |
Your point is well taken and duly noted my me and others. However, DPC was not put together to capture the essence of photographic art, but rather as a learning center for members to hone their talents by doing challenges to meet some form of criteria, more like a dynamic workshop whereim each member votes and comments according to his interpretation.
Out of this site has arisen many fine art studies along with photography of all types and the display of untold talent by many members and amazing images that often meet and exceed the challenge.
The voting has always been a problem. Voters evolve with the majority starting with very low votes. Look at the bulk of under 5 average in average vote given. Some voters, realizing the vested interest, lowball good images because they think this will jockey their position into a better end result. Those that are not incline to the arts will bypass artistic efforts. Many have an aversion to noise, grain, nudes, cigarettes, alcohol and when these images appear, no matter what great images they are, they earn their low votes. Then there is the morality issue which each individual lives by. There are no exception here because each of, whether religious or secular, live by precepts that deternine their so called, "Good Taste"
In short, the site's aim is not to promote the fine arts in photography, while there are some very good artistic photographers, it is a site to promote good photography. Yet any image is capable of winning all depending on the collective current voting psychology which sometimes changes on a dime.
You will be assaulted with descriptions of what good photography is and here we yield to the taste of each individual and where on the ladder of enlightenment they happen to be. So the place breaks up into voting blocks. Some look down on the "set up shot", others have seen enough sunsets, others want no deviation woth advance post processing, others hate graphical representation and some care not for a breast or a butt or anything they consider vulgar. Others hate patriotic shots. This has the consequence of allowing many good images to die. Each block exist to protect their interest and they do not fail to show their disdain by delivering their vote.
Despite all this the site continues to blossom because there is no other site that offers the excitement in competition found here. It is far from perfect and often advancements are not the very best, but it remains the best competative sight on the web with unold talented giants in many different fields.
So, yes, the fine art websites are not as popular, even those with voting judges because these places evolve into self breeding experiments wherein the judging bodies determine what is good and what is bad. Here, while harder to compete, there is more fun and missing the inbreeding of the finer art sites.
My voting gives all school equal weight. I do not care what your vision is as evidenced by your work, I judge the impact of the image as a whole and I have no antipathies to any subject matter nor do I have any predispositions. To me the image and its presentations trumps any prejudice I may entertain. If an image has noise and it speaks artistically it gets my high vote and this applies equally to all forms expressed. It is not the subject but its presentation.
The site is very big with many different viewpoints and many different voting styles. This is the arena we live with. Perhaps one day it will evolve to create a panel of judges for a specific artistic challenge but until then we are left with what we have. And then too, to find a good judge...
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 14:49:26. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:44:55 AM · #18 |
You know, I have to know if my point is just old news, or if its so far out in left field that it can't be fielded.
My point is that the general membership is not the best equipped to judge a photo competition where a goal of is to grow and learn about the craft of photography.
You may learn what people on DPC like, and they may or may not be representative of the rest of the populous, but you will not be fostering the best ideas about photography as an artform.
Thx for your words, Graphic. Well said as always.
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 14:46:38. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:48:24 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Originally posted by mcmurma:
Palmetto_Pixels and Alienyst, from your viewpoints of personal taste you are exactly right. You should be free to vote as you feel.
I disagree.
I feel ANY vote that is based solely on personal taste is a destructive one. It undermines the creativity of the artist and dilutes the worth of this site.
As to how how productive it is... I obviously feel its worth pursuing whereas you do not. |
Well, it would help to know that if you tossed that photo out for sale, how many people would be interested in buying it and how many people would walk away from your display if that photo were there. The voters are the general public. If I were selling my work, I would definatley want to know what people 'liked'. No matter how technically awesome a photo is, if it offends someone, they're not going to buy it. That is VERY helpful information in my opinion. |
I can't speak for everyone else here, but i don't enter challenges to find out what will sell. If i wanted to find that out, i'd just offer it up for sale.
The point of challenges (to me anyway) is as an opportunity to guage my talent (or lack there of) against other people in the general public, as well as (hopefully) get some quality feedback that i can then turn around and use to improve my future photographs.
Someone voting low because they don't like nudity, or some other aspect of the photo does me absolutely no good.
And if you can't objectively vote on the photographic merit and leave your opinions about the subject at the door, then don't vote on that photo. I don't understand what's so hard about simply moving onto the next one... |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:51:28 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by JonLud:
Someone voting low because they don't like nudity, or some other aspect of the photo does me absolutely no good.
And if you can't objectively vote on the photographic merit and leave your opinions about the subject at the door, then don't vote on that photo. I don't understand what's so hard about simply moving onto the next one... |
Unfortunately many people are so compelled by their beliefs/morals/whatever that they need to give low votes to images they find offensive for whatever reason. I personally do not agree with this philosophy, but then again there is little I find that offensive.
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:52:46 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
You know, I have to know if my point is just old news, or if its so far out in left field that it can't be fielded.
My point is that the general membership is not the best equipped to judge a photo competition where a goal of is to grow and learn about the craft of photography.
You may learn what people on DPC like, and they may or may not be representative of the rest of the populous, but you will not be fostering the best ideas about photography as an artform. |
You're not out in left field. Lots of people think what you're thinking.
And you're right, the general membership may not be the best equipped to judge a photo competition, but people do learn and grow at this site, more than at any other. I think part of it is that you get such a wide variety of opinions on your pictures, it helps, it makes you look at stuff from all sorts of points of view.
I think it's more than just learning what people at DPC like. That is part of it, it would be part of it also in a juried competition, maybe even more so. It is part of ANY competition. It is part of selling. There's nothing wrong with that.
Whether the best ideas about photography as an art form are fostered, that is not the aim of the site. It is an outcome of sorts, but not an aim. In other words, if something helps you to make your photography better, it can also help you to be a "better artist", or a better commercial photographer, or a better amateur photographer (in my case). And, from my own very limited experience in photography as an art form, the field is quite prejudiced depending on when/where/why.
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 09:55:20 AM · #22 |
DPC is very simple. We enter a couple hundred images, and we all vote on what we "like". Some of us are technically oriented, and we tend to evaluate the "photographic merit" of the entries. Others of us are sensitive, artistic souls and we tend to favor emotive, expressive images. Some of us are this, some of us are that, some of us are the other, whatever: we all carry baggage, and the baggage is who we are.
Any time we start "qualifying" jurors, we introduce one form of bias or another anyway. I don't see much point in that, for this site. There are plenty of juried-competition sites out there.
For me, one of the great pleasures of DPC is to see the not-so-occasional rise of one image in a challenge head-and-shoulders above all the tohers, so it sweeps to a dramatic victory with second place not even close. I love it when someone absolutely nails the topic in a way that cannot be ignored.
Robt. |
|
|
|
12/07/2005 10:12:44 AM · #23 |
What I enjoy the most of this site is the interaction of images, comments and work from people all around the world. It widens your perspective about visual arts and communication.
Nevertheless... it is gratifying when you get a good score!! ;^)
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 10:17:46 AM · #24 |
All righty !!!
Let's throw out this weekly popularity contest and have jurored challenges.
Now, how do we select a jury?
We could have everyone vote for those they think qualified.
Nope, just another popularity contest then.
How about those with the most ribbons?
Nah, they you only get those who are pandering to popular opinion already.
Let the SC select them, for they are the oldest and wisest among us.
Oops, just a popularity contest with a smaller sample, and with that horrible Grandma and Grandpa taint.
|
|
|
|
12/07/2005 10:19:07 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
I feel ANY vote that is based solely on personal taste is a destructive one. It undermines the creativity of the artist and dilutes the worth of this site. |
I never said mine was based on personal taste. I did state I personally did not like it. But I gave reasons for voting it low - again, her expression, her skin, the distracting background elements, the flare or spark or background thing that makes her head look like it is skewered like a carousel animal, her pose looks fake and forced, all of these things I think are correctable. But in my opinion, it didn't quite make it. |
|
