| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/12/2005 10:43:49 AM · #51 |
No let's change the site to www.DWYFWWADCBIASFAICBBWMTCA.com
Do whatever you F#@!'n want with a digital camera because I am so F#@!'n Advanced I can't be bothered with meeting challenges anymore ....... challenge.
That's the winner. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:44:21 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I think the struggle will always be trying to influence everyone to vote a certain way. Even by asking voters to be more open minded you are asking them to change their personal style of voting. I don't think this is one that will ever find resolution. Its asking the voter to be similar when we are all so obviously different.
Images that push people to think on the boundaries of a challenge topic have their place in a challenge, but unfortunately I don't think you will ever find one in first place. Another unfortunate is that the individual taking the image thinks it fits perfectly into the topic.
Personally, I will continue to take a topic find the sweet spot and try my best to s**t right on it. Hopefully my perspective is within the frame of the voters vision of the perfect sh*tter for this challenge is mine as well. If not I will take the critiques and try again!
Honestly, I am just holding out for the "Turd Free Study" challenge. |
I'm NOT arguing that these images should "win"; I'm arguing that their creators should not be criticized and castigated and made to feel like second-class citizens of the site because their vision is not the common one. It's enough that they get voted down, isn't it? Why do we rub their noses in it?
I didn't start the thread that spawned all these outpourings from me, but it offeneds me deeply enough that I am speaking out. It's NOT about score.
R. |
mmm... I was actually arguing in the same defense, but with a sense of realism as well. I don't disagree with you at all. Just more releastic about what is going to continue to happen. I am also relatively new here and haven't had a chance to see any "creators should not be criticized and castigated and made to feel like second-class citizens of the site because their vision is not the common one" of this that you speak. Not that it doesn't happen I just haven't seen it.
Again, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Yet, in a challenge it is all about a score. Otherwise take the challenge away and all you have is a gallery of similar images in relation to a topic. We are asking for judgement and fortunately that can mean many things. I'd be interested to know how many images get voted down because they are to cliche to the topic... the predictable image?
Vote for Pedro
Vote for the "Turd" challenge!
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:48:20 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
... I am also relatively new here and haven't had a chance to see any "creators should not be criticized and castigated and made to feel like second-class citizens of the site because their vision is not the common one" of this that you speak. Not that it doesn't happen I just haven't seen it. |
You saw it in the very creation of this thread, an a couple of other concurrent ones on the same theme: rein in those free thinkers! |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:48:48 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by Fibre Optix:
No let's change the site to //www.DWYFWWADCBIASFAICBBWMTCA.com
Do whatever you F#@!'n want with a digital camera because I am so F#@!'n Advanced I can't be bothered with meeting challenges anymore ....... challenge.
That's the winner. |
And that is time spent that you will never get back in your life.
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:50:56 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by notonline:
Originally posted by Fibre Optix:
No let's change the site to //www.DWYFWWADCBIASFAICBBWMTCA.com
Do whatever you F#@!'n want with a digital camera because I am so F#@!'n Advanced I can't be bothered with meeting challenges anymore ....... challenge.
That's the winner. |
And that is time spent that you will never get back in your life. |
That's okay beacause I wasted more reading the posts.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 14:51:39. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 11:00:59 AM · #56 |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 12:05:26 PM · #57 |
This situation is exactly why many of us advocate regular free studies. The challenges are fine, but from time to time a person just needs an excuse roam free in the larger comfort zone the challenges have created. The easy arguement to this is, of course, the person is always free to take whatever pics they want and post them to the forums -- but many of us are not quite to the point we are able to use the skills learned without direction. That is not to say a lot of direction is needed, just a push -- "Go west young man".
I feel this conflict comes about from two entirely different goals being put into the activity. Those of us learning the skills needed to take pictures are learning not only what is available for use to 'say' it with, but also how to use what is available. This includes the more technical aspects, but more as well.
The other side of this conflict comes from those that feel they already know all they need to know to be able to 'say' it, and feel they also already know know how to use what they know to 'say' it. These individuals just want to explore different ways of 'saying' it. This is not an egotistical way of thinking, but instead one that attempts to balance the knowledge with application -- and this balancing will likely need to be done in both directions from time to time.
Regularly scheduled free studies would help with this, but what I think would work best is a third challenge each week. Run it each Thursday or Friday, with a two week submission period and one week each for voting and display. This gives a bit longer time to work out the kinks in an idea and to allow the idea to blossom as best it can. I also would like to see the challenge have no discription at all, just a title -- run with it. And finally, I feel this should be available as a new tier of participation -- anything less and I don't feel it would get the separation in thought needed to make it work. If it was just another members challenge each week, I feel it and the existing member challenge would become muddied. This would not accomplish what it is intended to accomplish.
Just as words and grammer rules are learned to be able to communicate well when writing, a poet as a much different objective in mind than just getting the thought across.
David
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 17:40:32.
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 12:32:57 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
I'm NOT arguing that these images should "win"; I'm arguing that their creators should not be criticized and castigated and made to feel like second-class citizens of the site because their vision is not the common one. It's enough that they get voted down, isn't it? Why do we rub their noses in it?
I didn't start the thread that spawned all these outpourings from me, but it offeneds me deeply enough that I am speaking out. It's NOT about score.
R. |
I don't think anybody should be castigated, I think it's enough that it's voted down, I don't want any nosed rubbed in it - BUT, what are we talking about here? We are talking about people who push the envelope - the "radicals", the risk takers. In every human endeavor, those that challenge the status quo, rock the boat or whatever, those trouble makers are always castigated, dragged through the mud, reviled, etc.
But not by everybody!
Sometimes the idea catches on, shifting people's attitudes, little by little. Then some new nutcase comes along and messes it up...
That's what I call progress!
So I would like to say "thanks" to all the screwball non-conformists out there! I may sometimes not think your photo meets the challenge, but more often than not you end up changing my attitude about what the challenge was about.
And with that, I would also like to say I don't think we need any more free challenges - I like the tension that the topics give - I think really that is what makes this site so good. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 01:59:03 PM · #59 |
Pulling this back to the original questions raised by Robt
.... and writing an essay in response.
Originally posted by bear_music:
DPC = Digital Photography Challenge
In light of an increasing number of threads such as the following
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=256019
that are attempting to force some actual "rule" on meeting the challenge literally and obviously, I propose (for the sake of argument) the following question:
Is it time to rename the site DCPC â Digital Commercial Photography Challenge?
So many people are so stridently deriding any images that do not obviously and directly meet the challenge at its least common denominator level, often by pointing out that the "test" of meeting the challenge is to imagine you're submitting an image for a cover shot for "Affluence" magazine (or whatever), that I am curious what the collective feeling of our members is?
Because that's a VERY commercial-photography way of defining the goals of the site; the challenge is a "client" and the goal is to give the client EXACTLY what he was already looking for.
I find this very limiting, personally. Do you?
Robt. |
There are times when I find that there is narrowing of viewpoints on what is acceptable with any given challenge. I myself have adopted this approach on occasions, when I have felt that specific guidelines given in the challenge notes have been ignored.
[I am not so sure about gravitating toward a commercial photography mind set. Some used the affluence analogy to make a point. I feel that the point had some merits but the comparison for meeting a magazine editors needs, I way off kilter for me.]
I had never taken before I joined this site photographs ( I just pointed a camera at a subject and pressed the shutter), so my primary focus has been to try and understand what I am doing and then, through observation, discussion feedback and trial and error, try and improve.
DPC was founded on these basic principles and the weekly challenges were established as the vehicle for this learning process. Having a framework within which to work, provide a reasonably level playing field and provide a âcomfortâ zone within which to work.
I understand bear_musicâs concerns about commercial photography, and I would concur that from reading the comments given during voting in a number of challenges a number of people have a rather narrow range of concepts which they deem as acceptable for the challenge and mark the âprettiest imagesâ with the highest marks. However there are other challenges where the scope of acceptability would seem to be much broader.
I make a living based on the concept of thinking out of the box, looking at something, from a different angle and asking the questions that have not been asked before. I find that it catches people off guard and for a number it moves then to places where they are very uncomfortable. I have found to my cost that moving people too far can have negative effects, as some mask this discomfort by either lashing out or even worse entrenching themselves deeper into their own position.
However I find that if a gently introduce new ideas and thinking and slowly challenge beliefs and mindsets, positions can be changed and through this development process we establish a paradigm shift.
I think some of bear_musicâs photography is trying to push the current paradigm and I applaud his efforts. I just hope that he doesnât have to change his name to King Canute
On a final passing note I enjoy the weekly challenges and enjoy the opportunity to try and think differently about any given topic. For me the challenge is to think differently within a sometimes narrow framework of acceptability rather than approaching the problem from and outside the box mind set.
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 02:31:10 PM · #60 |
Enter the photo you want to enter, and then let the voters crown you king or slaughter you.
If it's the latter don't whine.
If you get beaten by people who you think aren't 'meeting the challenge' then perhaps you should rethink your definition of 'meeting the challenge'.
If you are beating the people who enter photos that don't meet the challenge' then you have no reason to complain; enjoy the variety and look carefully at some of them and try and work out why they might meet the challenge.
If you still need to restrict others in what they can enter, then you have a vote. Give them all 1's. But you don't get more control than your one vote.
If you feel really strongly about it then sign up for multiple accounts and vote down all who don't see things the same way you do. Then you'll be banned and the rest of us can breathe a sigh of relief and get on with the party. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 02:41:27 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
DPC = Digital Photography Challenge
In light of an increasing number of threads such as the following
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=256019
that are attempting to force some actual "rule" on meeting the challenge literally and obviously, I propose (for the sake of argument) the following question:
Is it time to rename the site DCPC â Digital Commercial Photography Challenge?
So many people are so stridently deriding any images that do not obviously and directly meet the challenge at its least common denominator level, often by pointing out that the "test" of meeting the challenge is to imagine you're submitting an image for a cover shot for "Affluence" magazine (or whatever), that I am curious what the collective feeling of our members is?
Because that's a VERY commercial-photography way of defining the goals of the site; the challenge is a "client" and the goal is to give the client EXACTLY what he was already looking for.
I find this very limiting, personally. Do you?
Robt. |
Robert, don't you really want to change the site to Digital Weekly Free Study Challenge? I get the feeling that you have never really bought into the "challenge" concept of the site. You are still trying to foist your idea of a "playground for artists" upon us.
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 03:58:40 PM · #62 |
When I created my image for the Illusions II challenge, I had the challenge in mind. To me it fit the challenge topic (maybe not the trick your viewers part - that might be a stretch) and so I submitted it.
Since voting started I have gotten some comments - "I don't see the illusion." Hmmm... Maybe these people think differently than me. Also, some people like the image and have made comments and critiques about what they like and what would improve it. Everything is fine with me. Some people get it some don't. Maybe there's nothing there to get. But I appreciate all comments as I learn what is expected and what is overlooked.
BUT, until I saw other images in the challenge, I had no idea what other people's perceptions and ideas were with regard to the challenge topic. Assuming that every image that you BELIEVE does not fit the challenge was intended to be 'outside the box' or breaking the rules is ridiculous. Sometimes some of us honestly have an idea that is different or that opposes your own.
Personally, I like structured challenges more than free studies, much as I like sestinas more than free verse. I like a box to work in - its easier to be creative. Well, easier when someone allows you to choose the size and color of your box.
d |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 04:21:33 PM · #63 |
Honestly, i think being able to think out of the box is a good thing on a site like this~! This site is about Digital photography, and i don't see how limiting the ways people express them selves in the challenges is good. personally, i tend to follow "the rules," but the challenges are all about personal prespectives~! you can't tell me they arn't~! one person may have a view, for example that an old chair fits in the affluence challenge, to us this may seem oad, and not appear to fit, but to them, this chair may be the most expensive thing they own, and thus think this represents material wealth. I found that in that challenge in particular, that we were all being very creative~! One photo in that challenge i thought was really good in the sence of "prespective" was Cash Crop (i'm sorry i'm going off memory, and don't know the photographer's name.) This photo was of a crop of soy beans. to us, this may not be representitive, but to the photographer, and to me, i realized that the farmer and owner of the crop depend on it for their money, and thus material wealth. I don't think restrictions will help much, i just think we all need to look out side the box a bit more when voting~! and ys, i was involved with the live music contraversie, but i don't think restrictions should be inforced. now let me hear your part
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 05:41:30 PM · #64 |
I think most of us are missing the point.
Drew and Langdon (bless'em) set up this site with what they thought should be the "rules". They established the Site Council to help settle disputes and enforce said rules. As the owners of the site, only Drew and Langdon, can have the ability to change the manner in which the site is operated. That's it. Nothing is said in the agreement we accept about "majority rules". If majority rules, it is only because the site owners allow(desire) it that way.
In short, if you think this most excellent site needs to change to adapt to the desires of anyone other than Drew or Langdon, then leave. You have that option. Please don't bug me about guidelines we accepted when we registered or paid our membership. Everyone susposedly came into participation in this site with full knowledge of how it is run. By the number of questions, I can tell that many have failed to read the FAQs or the Challenge rules. Do your homework first.
Just my 2cents.
gk |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 06:34:17 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Robert, don't you really want to change the site to Digital Weekly Free Study Challenge? I get the feeling that you have never really bought into the "challenge" concept of the site. You are still trying to foist your idea of a "playground for artists" upon us. |
Originally posted by Britannica:
This situation is exactly why many of us advocate regular free studies. The challenges are fine, but from time to time a person just needs an excuse roam free in the larger comfort zone the challenges have created. |
See, I'm quite opposed to additional free studies; this has nothing to do with feeling "constrained" by the challenge topic. It's about meeting it, but in a way which may be original or offbeat, not just the 38th example of the same interpretation in this contest.
It's about having that point of view considered as equally valid as that of the "literalist" voters. If the challenge is "apple" I will certainly respect your right to shoot a bowlful of luscious and softly-lit apples in the style of one of the "Old Masters." I merely ask that you respect my right to shoot a photo of a certain type of computer, or an apple core, or a huge pile of apple seeds from a juice plant, or any of the other ideas which are not just a plain ol' piece of fruit. You don't have to like 'em, but I think it's reasonable to ask you to accept that such photos would indeed "meet the challenge" as stated, although perhaps not as you would re-write it.
If you are trying to teach people to be creative, you don't impose more and more limits on what is the "right answer" -- art is subjective; how can there even be a "right" answer? This site is about teaching people to become better photographer/artists, not editorial assignment-fillers; that can come later when you are actually assigned something for a job, but this site is for fun and learning. I see very little value in this site having a major role in training people to shoot "assignment" photos in that sense ... that would be making us into a commercial photography farm team, just as bear_music opined in creating this thread. I see a great deal of value in teaching people to think beyond the obvious in their composition, and to freely experiment among a friendly group of peers. Experiments should not always "succeed" or yield the expected result. Or have you forgotton that you "learn from your mistakes"?
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 22:35:14. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 08:39:55 PM · #66 |
Gotta love the General, I do...
What's funny is that this thread began simply as a plea not to demonize the free-thinkers; no more, no less. And the "opposition" has proceeded to wade right back in doing exactly that. We are dangerously subversive, it would seem.
And so it goes.
Robt.
|
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 04/14/2025 05:31:39 PM EDT.
