| Author | Thread |
|
|
05/22/2005 08:36:23 PM · #1 |
I would like to see a challenge in which we have to submit one straight from the camera - no editing with Photoshop, or any other fancy photo editing software other than cropping. Maybe then those of us beginners could stand a chance around here. I don't think my low scores reflect so much a bad photo as they do my lack of PS skills.
Message edited by author 2005-05-23 00:37:42.
|
|
|
|
05/22/2005 08:40:32 PM · #2 |
This topic has come up countless times before. The one argument against it is that most dslr cameras do little in-camera sharpening, and so post-processing is required to get a decent image. It sounds like a great idea, i just don't think it will happen. There is also the problem of those who shoot in raw, would they be allowed to tweak the settings using software or is that outside the bounds?
Just my thoughts...
Perhaps a better solution would be to find some PS tutorials on the net if you are really that lacking in the post-processing department.
Message edited by author 2005-05-23 00:42:28.
|
|
|
|
05/22/2005 08:43:49 PM · #3 |
I'm with you Puggers.
:-D |
|
|
|
05/22/2005 08:44:07 PM · #4 |
| yes i totally agree puggers, most of my shots are straight from the camera, and i still get marked down from people saying , too sharp, not sharp enough or too blurry or not enough defintition..i actually had one comment that said he 'can't focus on this picture... sorry'.. the photo would have to be one of the clearest shots i ever taken...... i actually use to like/love photography until i started here, my confidence has been blown out the window....i am not going to submit for a while.... i can't stand the constant knock backs ALL the time.....i know it's a game, but sheesh, it plays with one's emotions... so for a while i will quit it... and go back to enjoying my photographing again, without the nitpics..... |
|
|
|
05/22/2005 08:48:10 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by roadrunner:
yes i totally agree puggers, most of my shots are straight from the camera, and i still get marked down from people saying , too sharp, not sharp enough or too blurry or not enough defintition..i actually had one comment that said he 'can't focus on this picture... sorry'.. the photo would have to be one of the clearest shots i ever taken...... i actually use to like/love photography until i started here, my confidence has been blown out the window....i am not going to submit for a while.... i can't stand the constant knock backs ALL the time.....i know it's a game, but sheesh, it plays with one's emotions... so for a while i will quit it... and go back to enjoying my photographing again, without the nitpics..... |
You have some excellent work roadrunner. I wouldn't let the voters get you down. The portraits and landscapes in particular were great. Your three most recent portfolio additions were absolutely beautiful. Please don't get discouraged about submitting here.
|
|
|
|
05/22/2005 08:56:19 PM · #6 |
OH WOW Justin... you just made my day.... thanks so much.... i certainly won't stop submitting here, as i have received some excellent feedback as well, just more harsh than good.... i just need to recoop and get the love back.... i like to take photos of spontaneous things, i hate 'looking' for a certain thing... so i need to go out and get new ideas for these challenges rather than get just anything.... i find it really hard to get something in a 'week' as i live in a very tiny town, and very very rarely leave the house, i really envy these people that have the city to explore and the people to photograph, if i photographed someone here in my town, there is no way they would let me put their photo on the net.. it's quite taboo to some, they only hear the bad in it....it's also very hard for country folk to get great night shots, as we get very dark at night, with no surrounding lights like the city..... i need to get out more and just take take take....lol.... but then they never meet the challenge dates, this has happend the last four challenges, i have had the perfect shot, as you will have seen in my profile, and i miss out on a day or so with the dates....lol....
enough violin playing... thanks so much for the compliment..... very much appreciated.... |
|
|
|
05/22/2005 09:03:57 PM · #7 |
Justin - I do not agree that you cannot get a good image straight out of the camera just because it is digital. Sure it won't qualify for a good digiart, but that would not be what we were shooting for.
As for tutorials, I have found some, and have recently purchased a good tutorial book - I still think this would be a good idea.
Those who shoot RAW can always convert them to .jpeg without a lot of tweaking, or better yet try shooting other than RAW for a change.
roadrunner - I personally have enjoyed your work. Keep it up. You can tell it comes from the heart.
Message edited by author 2005-05-23 01:04:24.
|
|
|
|
05/22/2005 09:04:07 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
This topic has come up countless times before. The one argument against it is that most dslr cameras do little in-camera sharpening, and so post-processing is required to get a decent image. It sounds like a great idea, i just don't think it will happen. There is also the problem of those who shoot in raw, would they be allowed to tweak the settings using software or is that outside the bounds?
Just my thoughts...
Perhaps a better solution would be to find some PS tutorials on the net if you are really that lacking in the post-processing department. |
the ppl. who complain about the sharpness are lying in my D70 and in the digital reb. there are many setttings that allow u to achieve a sharper image, softer image, vivid,normal....etc.
so there is no reason why they should make a stink.......
i do however see the problem of raw i only shoot in raw and although i'm pretty good at getting it right when i take it i do use alot of raw adjustments......keep in mind lots of ppl. would be killed if they couldn't use even a brightness and contrast adjustment.........
even a printer and a darkroom work need to make adjustments to refine the image and to make it of a certain quolity.......so just having a challenge based on what comes out of the camera isn't so far to all the photographers on this site.....many may realy on PS as they would there darkroom if they where shooting film.
its a good idea but u also must remember that then it is an equipment war. the Mark IIs vs. the D2Xs and the ppl. with the pro. equipment.
it would just hurt all of us using sheets as backdrops.
thats my 2¢ for what its worth
|
|
|
|
05/22/2005 09:43:13 PM · #9 |
|
|
|
05/23/2005 02:50:36 AM · #10 |
Why is it so hard to understand that images just need post processing and that even the prints you get from your film have been processed??? What you camera captures always needs adjustments. I think we should just get over this and come to terms with it. If you have a bad picture to begin with, no amount of PS is gonna make it an awesome one. I don't think that the more skilled PSers have any real advantage here. Just my two cents.
June
|
|
|
|
05/23/2005 02:59:03 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by chiqui74:
Why is it so hard to understand that images just need post processing and that even the prints you get from your film have been processed??? |
Tell that to event photographers and photojournalists.
If someone can't create an acceptable image just with camera, I believe they cannot use their camera well enough.
|
|
|
|
05/23/2005 05:44:15 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by chiqui74:
... What you camera captures always needs adjustments. I think we should just get over this and come to terms with it. ... |
I refuse to give up the belief that a camera, in combination with a thoughtful (or lucky) photographer, can capture a perfect image. And that many photos that are near to perfection can stand on there own without the support of post processing. To "come to terms" and concede that images "always need(s) adjustment" is like lowering your goals and settling for less. To use sports as an analogy, that would be like the team that is satisified with making the playoffs every year and does not care if they never win the championship.
Just my two cents.
But I don't think we need to expect to see a lot of nearly perfect images for a "Straight from the camea" challenge to be successful. It would just be a test of a different skill set than a challenge with editing.
The idea seems to have appeal to a big segment of dpc users as it keeps coming up in the challenge suggestions forums. At some point people are going to start asking "Why can't we give this one a try?" when they see very recent suggestions leapfrog it in the waiting list and become topics (like Ansel Adams, Extreme Action and Beauty did).
|
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:01:37 AM · #13 |
"It would just be a test of a different skill set than a challenge with editing. "
I feel this is what puggers meant... it's a different skill, there for a different challenge....why not... i think we'd all be totally surprised, i bet there would a lot of DQ's....lol.....either that , or not a lot of people enter.... i sometimes get the feeling, with all this photoshop ( don't get me wrong i love it and use it too) that some people do go a tad over board..... i mean, i think we've turned into the singers of the world, you really don't need to be a great singer anymore, it's more about looks and sex appeal.... this is happening here, you really don't need to be a great photographer anymore..... just be real clever with a computer......
just my 2c worth.....
|
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:05:29 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by fotodude:
the ppl. who complain about the sharpness are lying in my D70 and in the digital reb. there are many setttings that allow u to achieve a sharper image, softer image, vivid,normal....etc.
|
Tis true my camera does have those settings, but they are not lying!
I shoot RAW so those features are all turned off. The only choice you
have is to choose between sRGB and Adobe RGB.
|
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:07:06 AM · #15 |
Maybe we should have the challenge just to stop these arguments that pop up every month or so.
After the first one people whined and complained because they had to vote on a bunch of basically bad and lifeless images. Maybe those who want this challenge needs to see what a challenge like this can produce and then decide if they like purty pictures with contrast and color or straight of the camera and relatively unsharp and bland images. |
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:10:51 AM · #16 |
| Photoshop is a great tool and I sometimes use it, but I usually just adjust brightness, contrast, and saturation and crop (using Photobase 3). I try to submit as close to straight out of the camera as possible. As far as photography goes, IMHO, it's the eye for the shot that means EVERYTHING! The post processing can sometimes fall into the digital art catagory. I really would like to see a straight out of the camera challenge (or more of them), but it's not that big of a deal to me. After all, this is DPC and we know what the first letter stands for. :) |
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:10:58 AM · #17 |
| what a waste...image editing is as old as picture taking and this being the digital age and all...it is natural to tweak pictures. |
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:13:53 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by Gil P:
what a waste...image editing is as old as picture taking and this being the digital age and all...it is natural to tweak pictures. |
I agree, but I feel there's a difference in "tweeking" a photograph and turning it into digital art. Just my 2 cents. :) |
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:20:07 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by rayg544:
Originally posted by Gil P:
what a waste...image editing is as old as picture taking and this being the digital age and all...it is natural to tweak pictures. |
I agree, but I feel there's a difference in "tweeking" a photograph and turning it into digital art. Just my 2 cents. :) |
magazines like Graphika are good examples of this...BUT creative editing is also the new norm for fashion advertisment....so it's normal to see this reflected in the general photography population I find. |
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:24:23 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by moodville:
Maybe we should have the challenge just to stop these arguments that pop up every month or so.
After the first one people whined and complained because they had to vote on a bunch of basically bad and lifeless images. Maybe those who want this challenge needs to see what a challenge like this can produce and then decide if they like purty pictures with contrast and color or straight of the camera and relatively unsharp and bland images. |
Of course the images would not look as "polished" as they do in one of our regular challenges, especially Advanced Rules challenges. The voters would just have to take that into consideration. But I think they are up to it. We are learnig to accept the occasional sensor dust spot in the Basic Rules challenges.
|
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:31:28 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by chiqui74:
... What you camera captures always needs adjustments. I think we should just get over this and come to terms with it. ... |
I refuse to give up the belief that a camera, in combination with a thoughtful (or lucky) photographer, can capture a perfect image. And that many photos that are near to perfection can stand on there own without the support of post processing. To "come to terms" and concede that images "always need(s) adjustment" is like lowering your goals and settling for less. |
I think I would be lowering my goals by settling for what the camera decides is the best way to convert an image as opposed to putting my own creative control into the mix to try to accurately produce an image the way I saw it.
I agree that good composition, exposure and technique build the best possible foundation for an image, but I firmly believe (especially shooting RAW) that more often than not a final step in post processing can make a good image a great one.
Post-processing does not mean being heavy-handed. It can be a little or a lot. Sometimes it is the mildest of curves adjustments, or a little USM, but it can make a big difference to me. |
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:32:36 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by chiqui74:
Why is it so hard to understand that images just need post processing and that even the prints you get from your film have been processed??? |
Tell that to event photographers and photojournalists.
If someone can't create an acceptable image just with camera, I believe they cannot use their camera well enough. |
Event photographers and photojournalists do adjust all their images too. They do not take the images straight from the camera and send them to print. No they can't alter the image as far as content goes, but they do take out dust spots, do color correction, crop and sharpened every image. |
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:35:01 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by chiqui74:
Why is it so hard to understand that images just need post processing and that even the prints you get from your film have been processed??? |
Tell that to event photographers and photojournalists.
If someone can't create an acceptable image just with camera, I believe they cannot use their camera well enough. |
This is completely missing the point, Paul. Event photographers and photojournalists still need to have their images processed, prints have to be made, decisions are made on aesthetic grounds during the process. No image goes straight from the camera to a newspaper, say; someone, somewhere, has processed that image.
WE use a digital darkroom. That's different from film & chemicals, sure, but it's what we have. And when we use a digital camera we TELL IT WHAT WE WANT IT TO DO: we program into it how much contrast, sharpness, saturation we want it to use, what "film" speed we want it to use, even may tell it to create B/W if we wish. We do all that with film, of course, choosing the film that suits our needs etc etc.
But with the digital camera we have tje option of making these adjustments post-shooting, in the digital darkroom; we have the power to achieve a baseline image that can be used in many different ways, if we neutralize the camera settings (especially if we shoot RAW) and then make those value judgments when we see the finished result.
I fail to see the value of a challenge that forces people out of their workflow for no good reason.
I can see value in a "no crop" challenge, on the other hand. I can see value in a no-crop, no effects challenge, even. But I can't see any value in a challenge that fgorces you to do ordinary stuff in the camera that is better done in the computer. This is, after all, a "digital" photography site; it's MEANT to be done with computers. I can see LIMITING what we do with our computers, as an exercise, but not taking the computers out of the equation altogether...
Maybe I'm just weird that way...
Robt.
|
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:39:02 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by bruski:
Event photographers ... |
Having shot a medium sized event this weekend, I can tell you out of the 2,000 shots I took in two hours, none of them have been, or will be, edited. I specifically chose event photography because a lot of the time, just due to volume, there's no chance of editing them.
Originally posted by bruski:
photojournalists do adjust all their images too. They do not take the images straight from the camera and send them to print. No they can't alter the image as far as content goes, but they do take out dust spots, do color correction, crop and sharpened every image. |
I agree that some do, but "all" I think is a bit of a sweeping statement. A good number of the images I send to magazines have very little editing. I agree to a degree about cropping because obviously that depends on layout, etc.
|
|
|
|
05/23/2005 06:41:18 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
I fail to see the value of a challenge that forces people out of their workflow for no good reason. |
The value is to teach people to use their camera equipment to the very best degree they can.
I fully promote 'anything goes digital editing' challenges too, to teach people how to use their image editor to the best degree they can too.
|
|
