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02/08/2005 05:22:12 PM · #1 |
I have a chance, on Friday, to shoot at a rodeo. I will be given access to all areas of the rodeo to "shoot at will". It is an indoor event.
I'd like to hear from those of you who have photographed rodeos before as to what equipment you found most useful, and any other tips you have. I have not done an event like this, so don't really know what to expect, photographically speaking.
I plan on taking my monopod, tripod, 4GB of CF, 50mm f/1.8 and can't decide between Canon 75-300 f4.5 or Sigma 70-200 f2.8?? (I also have a 1.4 teleconverter for the Sigma)
Any input greatly appreciated. (I did search the forums first, but most of the photos are no longer "linked", so couldn't really tell what was accomplished with what equipment.)
Many Thanks!
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02/08/2005 05:31:13 PM · #2 |
Sigma f/2.8 for the arena events, and the 50mm f/1.8 for candids and such. If you have strobe lights that you can mount in the arena and trigger remotely, I highly recommend them, if not, make sure you have a strong speedlight and lots of batteries for it. Most indoor arenas are poorly lit and you will need the extra light in order to freeze the action. 1/200 - 1/300 sec will be needed to stop the action. For the Broncs and the Bulls you'll have to shoot from the sidelines, but for the roping events you should be able to stand down on the arena floor and shoot directly at the rider as he exits the shoot. Count on only 1 frame per rider per event. For the bulls and broncs, get them as the exit the shoot, for the ropers you can get them right as the rope hits the calf. For barrel racers I shoot from the opposite side of the arena from barrel 1 and snap at barrel 1 and barrel 3 as they round them.
Some Rodeos I've shot Here's some galleries that may help you out. If you have more questions, I'll see if I can help out more.
-danny |
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02/08/2005 05:38:39 PM · #3 |
I've done rodeos and dog field trials in outdoor facilities at night. Keep the 70-200 f/2.8 attached to the camera and leave the converter and any flash you may have at home. Shoot available light at wide apertures and fast shutter speeds. ISO 400 should be fast enough depending on how well the facility is lit. Keep the dust out of your camera and if possible try not to change lenses. Try to time where the rider or animal will be by paying attention to what happened when the previous riders or animals left the shoot. It is far easier to lock focus this way. Once you get the timing down you are going to catch some fantastic shots.
Good luck and don't get kicked or bit.
Message edited by author 2005-02-08 22:54:55.
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02/08/2005 05:55:31 PM · #4 |
Wow Danny, you've got some great shots there! Gives me some idea of what to look for/wait for. I have been told by some of the cavalry guys that live near me, that it is often not a good idea to use flash around the horses and bulls. Have you ever seen problems with this? Anyway, I hear this is a well lit indoor arena.
I notice that you have lots of photos of people from the event for sale, have you ever run into an issue of model releases?
@nsbca7: Thanks, I pretty much had decided on the 70-200, but am also going to take the 50mm just in case. BTW, I noticed that you live in "LA"; I lived in Dothan for many years, and I really miss Lower Alabama sometimes! I'm actually thinking about going to the rodeo in Marianna,FL that is scheduled for this summer and plan to visit Dothan.
Thanks guys!
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02/08/2005 06:01:46 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by lhall:
Wow Danny, you've got some great shots there! Gives me some idea of what to look for/wait for. I have been told by some of the cavalry guys that live near me, that it is often not a good idea to use flash around the horses and bulls. Have you ever seen problems with this? Anyway, I hear this is a well lit indoor arena.
I notice that you have lots of photos of people from the event for sale, have you ever run into an issue of model releases?
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I've had a few people ask that I not trigger flash when they run their horses, but for the most part, I have not had any problems with them.
My shots are for sale for the people who attend to purchase, I don't sell to stock or ad agencies, so there is no need for model releases.
Good luck and share some pics from your outing!
-danny |
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02/08/2005 06:10:56 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by lhall:
I have been told by some of the cavalry guys that live near me, that it is often not a good idea to use flash around the horses and bulls. Have you ever seen problems with this? Anyway, I hear this is a well lit indoor arena.
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The reason I said leave the flash at home was because first, unless you have a strobe system like Danny was talking about most of the shots you take will be out of effective flash range. Second you are much more likly to be welcomed by the riders and handlers if your not blinding them and the animals when they are out doing their thing. It seems much more professional at an event like this if you can effectively capture the images without a flash. This will get you a call back next time.
I see a lot of newspaper photographers at events like this popping flashes and then going off on their way, and you can see that nobody appreciated them being there.
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02/08/2005 06:23:12 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by lhall:
I have been told by some of the cavalry guys that live near me, that it is often not a good idea to use flash around the horses and bulls. Have you ever seen problems with this? Anyway, I hear this is a well lit indoor arena.
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The reason I said leave the flash at home was because first, unless you have a strobe system like Danny was talking about most of the shots you take will be out of effective flash range. Second you are much more likly to be welcomed by the riders and handlers if your not blinding them and the animals when they are out doing their thing. It seems much more professional at an event like this if you can effectively capture the images without a flash. This will get you a call back next time.
I see a lot of newspaper photographers at events like this popping flashes and then going off on their way, and you can see that nobody appreciated them being there. |
You obviously have not used a decent flash very often.
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02/08/2005 06:29:57 PM · #8 |
I find it difficult to believe that you can stop the action of a bucking bull with iso 400 and f/2.8 without a flash. They move fast and having a fast enough shutter indoors will require some external lighting. I have an SB800 flash on my nikon, and that sucker will throw out some light if needed. I had a night where I forgot my flash trigger for the strobes and just set the camera in manual mode 1/300 @ f/2.8 with the speedlight, and was surprised how well it did. And with all the night events I shot last year, i only had 2 riders ask that I not use my flashes, I think the key is to not shoot them when they're facing right into the camera, get them as the are more at an angle, or be farther away from them so that the flash isn't 'in their face'.
If you can do it without a external light, more power to you, but since I want to sell a high quality image to them on site, I prefer to use some light so I can stop the action and provide the best quality image I can.
-danny |
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02/08/2005 06:32:00 PM · #9 |
Couple of articles from guys who do this professionally, the first case for Sports Illustrated. Talks about lens choice, ISO, light levels etc at least for big stadium events. In particular they talk about setting up light arrays of 12+ strobes tied to a single camera...
//www.sportsshooter.com/news/618
//www.sportsshooter.com/news/349
Message edited by author 2005-02-08 23:35:19. |
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02/08/2005 06:33:52 PM · #10 |
| I can't see the riders minding the flash since they will be a bit busy looking down and counting to eight to look up; but if you pop off a flash into the eyse of a roper who is snaping out his shot, or running down the line for a flip, and he blames you for his miss, he might want to have words with you later. They would be kinder words for you than for a guy, but it may be better if you were cautious with that flash. |
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02/08/2005 07:40:13 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
You obviously have not used a decent flash very often. |
Your right. I had some pretty good SB flashes for my Nikon back in the good old days of film and never used them. The only flash I own for my Canon system is a twin macro. I shoot available light with fast lenses and rarely have trouble stopping action. The shots I got when I was shooting nighttime outdoor events were done with 800 speed film, a Nikon N90 and a Sigma 70-200 f/2.8. In the field trial events no photogs were allowed but I usually got in because I knew most of the dog and pen owners, they knew I wouldn't use a flash, and they knew I would be discreet with what I did with the images. There were handlers and owners at these events with $50K dogs and often the prize for coming in first would be $5 – 10K in the championships. If a man’s dog messed up and the man could blame it on something, anything, half the time he would. (your flash included) Ever see an angry redneck? I was always welcomed back.
The rodeos are not as sensitive to flash as the field trials because most times there are hundreds of spectators in the stands with P&S flash cameras just popping away, but that is very different then being right down in the line of eyesight with the contestants popping away while they are fixing to throw a rope. I̢۪m sure the bronc or bull riders wouldn̢۪t mind a bit as I doubt they will ever even notice you. And perhaps a flash will come in very handy back behind the scenes where the lights are not as bright.
All I̢۪m saying is use common sense and if you can get by without a flash do it. That̢۪s why you paid all that money for a fast lens anyway, wasn̢۪t it?
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02/08/2005 07:49:33 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
You obviously have not used a decent flash very often. |
Your right. I had some pretty good SB flashes for my Nikon back in the good old days of film and never used them. The only flash I own for my Canon system is a twin macro. I shoot available light with fast lenses and rarely have trouble stopping action. The shots I got when I was shooting nighttime outdoor events were done with 800 speed film, a Nikon N90 and a Sigma 70-200 f/2.8. In the field trial events no photogs were allowed but I usually got in because I knew most of the dog and pen owners, they knew I wouldn't use a flash, and they knew I would be discreet with what I did with the images. There were handlers and owners at these events with $50K dogs and often the prize for coming in first would be $5 – 10K in the championships. If a man’s dog messed up and the man could blame it on something, anything, half the time he would. (your flash included) Ever see an angry redneck? I was always welcomed back.
The rodeos are not as sensitive to flash as the field trials because most times there are hundreds of spectators in the stands with P&S flash cameras just popping away, but that is very different then being right down in the line of eyesight with the contestants popping away while they are fixing to throw a rope. I̢۪m sure the bronc or bull riders wouldn̢۪t mind a bit as I doubt they will ever even notice you. And perhaps a flash will come in very handy back behind the scenes where the lights are not as bright.
All I̢۪m saying is use common sense and if you can get by without a flash do it. That̢۪s why you paid all that money for a fast lens anyway, wasn̢۪t it? |
It doesn't really matter how fast your lens is when the light creates shadows that can render a newspaper photo useless. You brought up a rather snide remark about newspaper photogrpahers using their flashes like they were general idiots who didn't know what they were doing. I guess you have done newspaper work before and know what the requirements for it are and have found better solutions than a flash. |
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02/08/2005 08:00:27 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
You brought up a rather snide remark about newspaper photogrpahers using their flashes like they were general idiots who didn't know what they were doing. I guess you have done newspaper work before and know what the requirements for it are and have found better solutions than a flash. |
No, but I know a lot of newspaper photgraphers who don't give a damn about what they are covering or how they go about it so long as they can get their pics fast and get out. A photgrapher who sticks around to at least see who won the event, interacts with and gets to know the people, and takes the time to find out when and where to take pictures and use flashes will always be made to feel more welcome. The photographer who never bothers to close out an event, as it has been my experience to witness, is probably oblivious to what is said behind his back after he leaves. That's if he cares at all.
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02/08/2005 08:11:22 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
You brought up a rather snide remark about newspaper photogrpahers using their flashes like they were general idiots who didn't know what they were doing. I guess you have done newspaper work before and know what the requirements for it are and have found better solutions than a flash. |
No, but I know a lot of newspaper photgraphers who don't give a damn about what they are covering or how they go about it so long as they can get their pics fast and get out. A photgrapher who sticks around to at least see who won the event, interacts with and gets to know the people, and takes the time to find out when and where to take pictures and use flashes will always be made to feel more welcome. The photographer who never bothers to close out an event, as it has been my experience to witness, is probably oblivious to what is said behind his back after he leaves. That's if he cares at all. |
Unfortunately, a lot of newspaper photographers could care less about photography. They have a job to do and they don't view it as much more than that. They also don't have to feel 'welcome' anywhere. Most of them aren't there because they want to be. They are there because they are paid to be there.
I enjoy doing what I do for my local newspaper. One of the drawbacks I have is that I can't always stay for an entire event. I have deadlines to meet. I have to get my images ready for press prior to 10pm on shooting day. If I shoot a 730pm football game or an 8pm basketball game, I never get to stay past half time.
You have to understand the photographer's goal before you can evaluate their intentions.
The head photographer at my newspaper is just what you describe here. He has been doing it for almost 30 years and he doesn't give a damn about the photos he shoots. He doesn't stay for the duration of any event he attends. He shoots his assignment, and leaves as soon as he has what he needs. When "I" look at his work, I can see his lack of interest in the events. When the newspaper editors look at his work, they see a completed assignment that gives them the necessary images they need to go with a story. When I attend an event, I stay as long as I can. I stay for the full event if time permits. I do enjoy the photography and I also want to provide the best possible images rather than just 'meet the challenge'.
Maybe this will help you understand 'why' you see what you see. There are good and bad photographers in any area of photography. Some, like us, care more about it than others, but we don't want to be lumped into a lame stereotype because of the bad apples.
I'm not particularly good at what I do, but I did hit the 100 published photos mark this past Saturday. That's not bad for a 'stringer' who only does it part time. I have only been doing it for a little over 5 months now.
//www.pbase.com/jmsetzler/published
What's even more disheartening is when you submit a good photo to the designers after they give you a specific size requirement, and then change that afterwards. I have had several photos I thought were excellent ruined because they had to fit them in a smaller space than they originally asked me for.
I like meeting people and interacting with the crowds at these sporting events I cover. A lot of the people know me by name now and it's quite fun. I enjoy it and I hope I never have to give it up.
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02/08/2005 08:25:45 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I like meeting people and interacting with the crowds at these sporting events I cover. A lot of the people know me by name now and it's quite fun. I enjoy it and I hope I never have to give it up. |
I wasn't trying to lump anyone. I just have never seen different. Copy this thread down and look at it ten years from now if you are still in the same business and see if you still feel the same way. I hope you do. If more photographers were passionate about their trade photgraphy in general would stand in a better light.
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02/08/2005 08:28:47 PM · #16 |
I shoot rodeos regularly for a few years now. I set up and print onsite as well.
Some people ask that I not use flash on them for a particular event. Forget about strobing for a rodeo, just not worth it. You could only use them for the bulls, broncs(the rodeos I do dont do broncs), and maybe roping. If you went in and set up strobes you would spook the hell out of to many horses.
For barrel or pole racing(big sellers) get as close as you can and use the best on cam flash you can get. If I have to I will shoot at iso 1600 with my 20d. 3200 just doesn't look so good.
I think how you shoot it will have alot to do with for what use you are shooting. If you are shooting just to have some cool rodeo shots then find a daytime rodeo. I seem to sell alot better at daytime rodeos. At least partly because you can shoot so many more shots. I have shot as many as 1200 pictures in one day. I also try not to miss a single ride(it is alot of work).
Three newspapers use my photos at least once in a while. Includeing our statewide paper. Sometimes I see some of the full time paper photographers and they have always seemed to like what they do and care about events. But they do have a job to do. No matter how much you like your job I dont think anyone ALWAYS wants to be there.
Here are some I shot this weekend in the darkest arena ever. I didn't even try to shoot the roping because I cant get close enough on most runs for my flash to help.
Rodeo Pictures
The bad part is you cant really cull much of your work. They will be expecting to see thier picture so I just do the best I can with every picture and show just about all of them.
Tim
timferrell.com
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02/08/2005 08:35:35 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I like meeting people and interacting with the crowds at these sporting events I cover. A lot of the people know me by name now and it's quite fun. I enjoy it and I hope I never have to give it up. |
I wasn't trying to lump anyone. I just have never seen different. Copy this thread down and look at it ten years from now if you are still in the same business and see if you still feel the same way. I hope you do. If more photographers were passionate about their trade photgraphy in general would stand in a better light. |
I really like the way I'm doing it now. I'm doing it because I want to and not because I have to. Its not my primary job. I have avoided commercial photography of any kind for quite a while for this very reason. I have turned down so many offers to shoot for pay that I can't even count them all. My newspaper work came from me attempting to get access to the sidelines for high school football. I was just in the right place at the right time. I enjoy the experience enough that I want to continue it. It doesn't interfere with my own photography interests, so it works very well. If an opportunity came up for me to take a full time job working for a newspaper, I would probably do it. I have been exposed to enough of it in the last 5 months that I do believe it is a job I would really enjoy. I love 'street photography' in general.
It's almost pointless to speculate about 10 years down the road. If I was doing this full time, I certainly could become uninterested in it. Newspaper photographers don't enjoy the luxury of doing things the way they want to most of the time, and I would not like that apsect of it. TIME is always an issue in that field. You have to get what you can in the time you have available. At my local newspaper, the photographers rarely get more than a few days notice on any given assignment, and many assignments are given the same day they have to be shot, so preparation and 'thought' just don't have the chance to materialize.
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02/08/2005 08:36:13 PM · #18 |
Ihall, I have not had the opportunity to shoot rodeos, but I used to be on the other side of the camera. I rode bulls for 3 1/2 years out of North Carolina. I just wanted to tell you to make sure you get back where the riders prep their riggin'. You should be able to get some great shots of the bullriders as they apply the rosin to their ropes. It is largely a time of mental preparation and you will surely be able to capture some interesting "mood" shots. If you don't mind I would love to see some of your results if you happen to attempt my recommendation. Good luck.
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02/08/2005 08:38:17 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by lhall:
I have a chance, on Friday, to shoot at a rodeo. I will be given access to all areas of the rodeo to "shoot at will". It is an indoor event.
I'd like to hear from those of you who have photographed rodeos before as to what equipment you found most useful, and any other tips you have. I have not done an event like this, so don't really know what to expect, photographically speaking.
I plan on taking my monopod, tripod, 4GB of CF, 50mm f/1.8 and can't decide between Canon 75-300 f4.5 or Sigma 70-200 f2.8?? (I also have a 1.4 teleconverter for the Sigma)
Any input greatly appreciated. (I did search the forums first, but most of the photos are no longer "linked", so couldn't really tell what was accomplished with what equipment.)
Many Thanks! |
Hi Linda :)
Where is the Rodeo you will be shooting?
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02/09/2005 06:42:13 AM · #20 |
Hi John; the rodeo is in Lexington, VA. I am both excited to try this (something I've never done), and also very nervous about it. I hate to be nervous about it, but I guess I'm a little worried about being "kicked to the curb" by the pro photographers. I don't want to get in their way, just want to see what's what with shooting rodeos.
It's something I've always wanted to do, and this is a great opportunity since the man who is running the show is giving me access. There are no "expectations" here on anyone's part, so that is good!
Another question for those of you who are familiar with rodeos is this: the man told me that I had to wear a hat, long sleeved shirt and boots, 'cause I shouldn't look like a photographer. He wasn't kidding, was he?? The guy is a character, I think, and I can't wait to meet him. His name is Preston Fowlkes; maybe those of you who do rodeos have heard of him; I don't know if he is "big" or not.
@Doug: those are exactly the shots that I am interested in, more so than the bull riding and stuff. I want the "life" of rodeo shots, I guess. Rodeo life has always fascinated me, and I would love to get some good shots of that. Will I need flash for that kind of shot, do you think? Or is there usually enough available light? I guess I'll find out!
@Gordon: thanks for those links! I found them both interesting and instructional. This is sure to be a learning experience for me, judging by those articles.
Many thanks to all of you for your input,
Linda
Anyway, thanks to all of you
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02/09/2005 07:34:13 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by lhall:
Another question for those of you who are familiar with rodeos is this: the man told me that I had to wear a hat, long sleeved shirt and boots, 'cause I shouldn't look like a photographer. He wasn't kidding, was he?? The guy is a character, I think, and I can't wait to meet him. His name is Preston Fowlkes; maybe those of you who do rodeos have heard of him; I don't know if he is "big" or not.
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Come as you are. The hat will only get in your way when using a camera. I mean you're gonna look like a photographer anyway, your taking pictures. No sense show up looking like it's your first day at the dude ranch.
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02/09/2005 07:51:05 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by lhall:
Another question for those of you who are familiar with rodeos is this: the man told me that I had to wear a hat, long sleeved shirt and boots, 'cause I shouldn't look like a photographer. He wasn't kidding, was he?? The guy is a character, I think, and I can't wait to meet him. His name is Preston Fowlkes; maybe those of you who do rodeos have heard of him; I don't know if he is "big" or not.
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Come as you are. The hat will only get in your way when using a camera. I mean you're gonna look like a photographer anyway, your taking pictures. No sense show up looking like it's your first day at the dude ranch. |
I disagree. A certain amount of "western" attire is recommended here because of what these people have had to deal with from animal cruelty in recent years. I shot a roping last year and "came as I was". I was asked no fewer than 5 times if I was with animal cruelty or some other agency. They are super-paranoid about it now--at least at local, podunk arenas.
I wouldn't bother with a hat, but some Justins and a plaid workshirt would be appropriate. |
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02/09/2005 08:11:22 AM · #23 |
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02/09/2005 08:29:17 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by bledford:
I wouldn't bother with a hat, but some Justins and a plaid workshirt would be appropriate. |
I would agree with that. The reason these field trial events don't allow photographers at all is because of PETA, ect... I don't wear anything special, but I am pretty well known at most of the events I cover. Besides my regular attire consists of bluejeans and camo so I kind of blend anyway in this part of the country. I mean don't show up looking like Martha Stewart.
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02/09/2005 12:57:51 PM · #25 |
The attire was by no means a joke Linda. You don't want to stand out for the reasons listed above, to include the fact that having someone looking at you like your an alien in each picture would not be true to life. Whatever you do, don't show up looking like every piece of your attire was just purchased either. :) I can't comment on proper lighting because I don't know where and when you are shooting. Some bigger city events are held indoors, but I am going to assume you will be outdoors. Since you are shooting on Friday I would expect you will need a flash for some of the behind the scenes stuff, since inside the arena is usually the only well lit area. Even then you should expect some difficulty in getting enough light if it's a small town type rodeo. Have you thought about trying to get into the Sunday event? They are held around noon time and would offer much better lighting and shooting opportunities. Lastly, might I recommend getting a shot of a cowboy throwing a pinch of copenhagen in his lip. The only thing more universal than injury in the rodeo arena is the love of copenhagen and Chris LeDoux.
Doug.
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