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03/29/2015 08:55:19 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Mike:
that is besides the point. You did nothing wrong and if at some point in your willingness to help them they decided that they have enough info to now haul you in you'd be in a bit more of a mess.
If cop stops you, ask them why you are being stopped and then proceed to tell them that that you are within your rights to be doing what you are doing and that you are sorry if its making someone uncomfortable but you are not breaking any laws.
The fact the you offered to delete the files is ludicrous, don't give them more power than they have. |
You may be right but if one considers the Terry Rule (and take into consideration that someone reported your activities to the police as being suspicious), I personally would be more inclined to cooperate to a certain degree as opposed to getting in their face.
Ray |
i never said to get in their face but I'm skeptical that the police sometimes wont act on the public fears over what is in my best interest when knowing I did nothing wrong.
just because someone reports something you are doing as suspicious activity doesn't mean you need to go out of your way to alleviate the unfounded fears especially by deleting images you are within your rights to take. |
You may be within your legal rights but if you leave the scene you increase suspicion of your activity and when dealing with an angry mob it may be in your best physical interests to be forthcoming and transparent. You may also come across some of them in the future in the communities you inhabit and visit.
It doesn't appear that child pornography is associated with street photographers but rather with people connected with with families and friends of the victim so why aren't the families, communities and schools more aware of the type of perpetrator of these crimes and why haven't authorities been able to close down internet sites allowing for its dissemination? |
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03/29/2015 09:47:06 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:
To be clear, outside of the fact that I likely would have been threaten with cuffs were I to have simply walked away, I never felt harassed, merely extremely inconvenienced. I've lived in this town for 22 years and have no desire to create an antagonistic relationship with the police now. Had it been someone who said I was photographing their house or car I would have scoffed and been on my way, but given that it was dealing with a child and had been reported through a chain of command from bus driver to principal to police I was more than happy to try and cooperate - I just didn't think it would take 20 minutes and 4 cops, and have no idea why I had to remain there while they calmed the mother's fears remotely given that they'd seen my photos.
Our next door neighbor's son in-law is a township cop and I plan on having a conversation with him about it next time I catch him there. He's usually there on Sundays but the weather has made it such that I haven't been outside to catch him. |
that is besides the point. You did nothing wrong and if at some point in your willingness to help them they decided that they have enough info to now haul you in you'd be in a bit more of a mess.
If cop stops you, ask them why you are being stopped and then proceed to tell them that that you are within your rights to be doing what you are doing and that you are sorry if its making someone uncomfortable but you are not breaking any laws.
The fact the you offered to delete the files is ludicrous, don't give them more power than they have. |
I never said I'd delete anything - I offered them a dump of the card if it would prevent me from having to show them one-by-one to yet another officer. I also figured it would get me home with one cop waiting on me and off the side of the road with 4 and me waiting on them.
Again, I understand my rights and chose, given the circumstances, to cooperate with their request. I suspect that, had I had a photo ID on me, I would have spent much less time there since it took them 10 minutes to decide I was who I said I was and not someone hiding as someone else (I'm not sure if rattling off my DL number by memory was a good thing or bad thing in this case). If for whatever reason I get stopped again (I walk every decent day, always with a camera) I will approach things very differently.
And as anxious a situation as I may have experienced, if you have not yet bothered to read the original article that led me to posting my story, THAT is where the true insanity lies. Before the cop ever gets there you have a mob of 2nd Amendment enthusiasts holding a photographer hostage, openly threatening their well-being while they are nothing but cooperative in trying to defuse a complete misunderstanding/mental fabrication. I'll take regular intervals of 20 minutes with a cop if I can avoid this for the rest of my life. |
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03/29/2015 01:38:42 PM · #28 |
| Yeah,, that story is pretty disgusting |
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03/29/2015 02:05:50 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I love the extremes this society goes to. On one hand we have people paranoid over the danger of people with cameras. Then we have folks that believe the ultimate safety is everyone toting a live handgun around. I just hope these aren't the same people. |
After reading the article thoroughly, I find my statement was right. They are the same people.
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03/29/2015 02:07:04 PM · #30 |
I think some of the modern day fear that causes this sort of craziness is generated by the media and how easily bad news spreads. So we become afraid of everybody.
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03/29/2015 02:25:09 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I think some of the modern day fear that causes this sort of craziness is generated by the media and how easily bad news spreads. So we become afraid of everybody. |
Absolutely. |
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03/29/2015 03:19:19 PM · #32 |
Jake, I wish you had taken a head shot of each policeman along with a close up of his badge.
"excuse me officers I want to be accurate as I record this incident. I may want to write about it for the local paper".
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03/29/2015 03:38:43 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Jake, I wish you had taken a head shot of each policeman along with a close up of his badge.
"excuse me officers I want to be accurate as I record this incident. I may want to write about it for the local paper". |
Yep...and in some places that might be illegal under certain conditions. See Here
Not saying it is right, just bringing to people's attention that sometimes you might just get yourself in a pickle for no reason at all.
Ray |
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03/30/2015 05:31:24 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I think some of the modern day fear that causes this sort of craziness is generated by the media and how easily bad news spreads. So we become afraid of everybody. |
Absolutely. |
+1
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Jake, I wish you had taken a head shot of each policeman along with a close up of his badge.
"excuse me officers I want to be accurate as I record this incident. I may want to write about it for the local paper". |
If it had gotten antagonistic I might have pulled out the iPhone and started recording, but again my thought was just to keep the peace here and cooperate because some kid's mom is freaking out and the last thing I need is someone who lives 1/4 mile from my house (on a road where everyone seems to have a backyard shooting range) learning that some man allegedly took a photo of her child and is now refusing to cooperate with the police. I'll settle for practical inconvenience, even if it is momentary injustice, rather than have to sit at home thinking about some idiot stewing over what someone may be thinking about their kid and how they need to end it before it begins. What Yo_Spiff said is all too true, and I happen to live in an area of NJ where not owning a firearm ... well ... it would be enough for them to refuse you service if this was Indiana.
I'm off to the police station today to see what's actually on record. I'll let y'all know.
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03/30/2015 02:11:11 PM · #35 |
So, I was able to obtain a police report for the "incident" and I am now officially logged as a "suspect" in a document that describes me initially as "a suspicious male who took pictures possibly of children getting onto a school bus".
The report goes on to say that I (described as the owner of a local photography business) "willingly scrolled through (all my photos) for this officer to view", and that "this officer viewed a plethora of pictures of the scenery in the area of (road name) and later observed a photo of a bus with the stop sign out and the red lights lit up, but no photos of children. The pictures were taken of the driver's side of the bus."
So, here's what I'm seeing - if you read the report it's clear that I took a photo of a school bus, and a lot of other beautiful stuff. BUT, my question is, what happens the next time I am stopped for ANYTHING and all they know is that I was questioned as a "suspicious male who took pictures possibly of children getting onto a bus"?!
At this point I'm not looking for speculation but some sound legal advice (if that's you, PM me, please). Can I get my name (and address!!) redacted in some way? I have access to legal services through my company and will be contacting a lawyer tomorrow to see what actions I can pursue, if any, to have my name somehow disconnected with this. While school buses will no longer be in my line of fire unless they're (possibly) parked and empty, the fact is that ANYONE with a paranoid streak in their bones can call the cops about an "older man with a big camera", and now it's somehow a pattern of behavior and my name on a list where it doesn't belong. |
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03/30/2015 02:31:54 PM · #36 |
| This just keeps getting worse :( |
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03/30/2015 02:56:13 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:
I have access to legal services through my company and will be contacting a lawyer tomorrow ... |
Even if you could, you probably shouldn't do anything until you've done this.
One thing you might do is print this thread* by way of the "contemporaneous notes" so popular with lawyers, and print out a "contact sheet" of all of the photos you took that day, preferably with the date and image numbers.
Consider writing all of this up for possible media release.
Report your "neighbor" to mental health services/CPS as a potentially dangerously paranoid personality known to experience vivid imaginary episodes, and you are afraid she might hurt her children.
*except maybe this post ;-) |
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03/30/2015 03:30:08 PM · #38 |
| Ah jeez, that's crazy. I wish you look with the lawyer and getting your name off the police report, but I have no clue how hard that might be. |
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03/30/2015 06:15:18 PM · #39 |
If you were wandering around with a loaded handgun you would have had an easier time. After all, people only carry guns to protect themselves, right?
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03/30/2015 06:57:05 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
If you were wandering around with a loaded handgun you would have had an easier time. After all, people only carry guns to protect themselves, right? |
What's "funny" is that a "shotgun microphone" is probably more "illegal" than either a gun or a camera -- the laws against public recording of audio are more restrictive than those governing photography ... :-( |
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03/31/2015 09:02:29 AM · #41 |
As Steve said if you were walking down the road with an Uzi over your shoulder you would be considered normal.
I printed up a "Press" card on my computer (Lennon( as in John) News Corporation. I wear it on a lanyard around my neck and I was able to get very close to "ground zero' after 9/11.
I still use it when I want into prime time locations. Police have looked at it but have never stopped me.
If your local paper is conscious I would write up the incident and include the photo of the bright yellow school bus in the fog. People might see how paranoid and fearful things have become.
In this instance there is a definite sexual bias. If I were walking on that same road snapping photos of the school bus no one would think twice...sadly. |
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03/31/2015 11:26:35 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
As Steve said if you were walking down the road with an Uzi over your shoulder you would be considered normal.
I printed up a "Press" card on my computer (Lennon( as in John) News Corporation. I wear it on a lanyard around my neck and I was able to get very close to "ground zero' after 9/11.
I still use it when I want into prime time locations. Police have looked at it but have never stopped me.
If your local paper is conscious I would write up the incident and include the photo of the bright yellow school bus in the fog. People might see how paranoid and fearful things have become.
In this instance there is a definite sexual bias. If I were walking on that same road snapping photos of the school bus no one would think twice...sadly. |
19 times out of 20 I have my wallet, or at least my business cards with me, which would help diffuse something like this sooner than later. Unfortunately, as I was walking out the door my wife (who apparently loves me enough to want to keep me around) made me change out of my brown jacket and cap into the yellow coat and red cap so I could be seen in the fog, and the cards that are normally in the other jacket aren't in this one.
If I do an editorial I would want to do it in such a way that it lays out the facts bare and point neither to the cops or the bus driver as "bad guys" of any sort, but instead as you said make people aware of the ridiculous nature of their fearfulness. The only thing keeping me from doing that is the reaction of gotten from more conservative leaning people who actually went out of their way to try and find the reflection of a child in my photo and telling me I was out of my mind for even taking the photo. The area I live in is filled with these types and to have my name posted with the editorial would likely make for drunken threats from frightened parents in the middle of the night.
Another aspect of this that I am still looking at is the variation in the story I was told by the cops who stopped me and the account of the "complaint" in the police report - there is no mention of a child, their mother or a school principal, all of which were the players used by the officer in an effort to get me to cooperate. My hope is to use these variations to get the entire thing expunged. Again, I'll keep you all up to date as I know more. |
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03/31/2015 11:34:49 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:
So, I was able to obtain a police report for the "incident" and I am now officially logged as a "suspect" in a document that describes me initially as "a suspicious male who took pictures possibly of children getting onto a school bus".
The report goes on to say that I (described as the owner of a local photography business) "willingly scrolled through (all my photos) for this officer to view", and that "this officer viewed a plethora of pictures of the scenery in the area of (road name) and later observed a photo of a bus with the stop sign out and the red lights lit up, but no photos of children. The pictures were taken of the driver's side of the bus."
So, here's what I'm seeing - if you read the report it's clear that I took a photo of a school bus, and a lot of other beautiful stuff. BUT, my question is, what happens the next time I am stopped for ANYTHING and all they know is that I was questioned as a "suspicious male who took pictures possibly of children getting onto a bus"?!
At this point I'm not looking for speculation but some sound legal advice (if that's you, PM me, please). Can I get my name (and address!!) redacted in some way? I have access to legal services through my company and will be contacting a lawyer tomorrow to see what actions I can pursue, if any, to have my name somehow disconnected with this. While school buses will no longer be in my line of fire unless they're (possibly) parked and empty, the fact is that ANYONE with a paranoid streak in their bones can call the cops about an "older man with a big camera", and now it's somehow a pattern of behavior and my name on a list where it doesn't belong. |
Sounds kind of like you should probably take some proactive stance and go after these people who have now semi-officially painted you in a horribly reputation damaging light. If you're as cool-headed as you seem, this may be an opportunity for you to not only clear up *any* doubt, but to also make the local public aware that A. Not all middle aged guys with a camera are potential pedophiles, and B. that there are consequences for freaking out and potentially destroying someone's life. There is no good reason at all for your name to be associated with this incident for the permanent record. Records are expunged on a regular basis for the very purpose of having them not be applicable for *any* future issues.
Message edited by author 2015-03-31 15:36:11.
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03/31/2015 11:36:21 AM · #44 |
now you've got a passel of players with doubtful stories to uphold. not easy for peeps to back down.
so now it is 2 things: the paranoia AND the need to save face.
we are behind you. |
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03/31/2015 11:37:46 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:
Another aspect of this that I am still looking at is the variation in the story I was told by the cops who stopped me and the account of the "complaint" in the police report - there is no mention of a child, their mother or a school principal, all of which were the players used by the officer in an effort to get me to cooperate. My hope is to use these variations to get the entire thing expunged. Again, I'll keep you all up to date as I know more. |
Maybe you should ask to see the police report of the entire incident. This is sounding pretty bad.
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04/01/2015 01:15:03 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Jake, I wish you had taken a head shot of each policeman along with a close up of his badge.
"excuse me officers I want to be accurate as I record this incident. I may want to write about it for the local paper". |
Yep...and in some places that might be illegal under certain conditions. See Here
Not saying it is right, just bringing to people's attention that sometimes you might just get yourself in a pickle for no reason at all.
Ray |
That's just a bill, not a law. And if it should become a law, it's still not Constitutional. That pesky Bill of Rights and allâ€Â¦ you know, getting in the way of security because of ummm terrorismâ€Â¦9/11â€Â¦and well, 'Mericaâ€Â¦dammit. |
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04/02/2015 07:06:47 AM · #47 |
I've been following this story, and at each turn I find myself wondering when common sense and logic will appear.
I am not an anti government, nor anti authorities person. However this type of thing is becoming all too frequent.
One person taking on the police is bad odds. I think you responded appropriately. I like the idea of talking to lawyers. The media may be a route as well.
An idea I have not seen mentioned, is to organize a photo walk. Paranoid lady doesn't like a photographer in the area, how about twenty photographers? |
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04/02/2015 04:00:50 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
I've been following this story, and at each turn I find myself wondering when common sense and logic will appear.
I am not an anti government, nor anti authorities person. However this type of thing is becoming all too frequent.
One person taking on the police is bad odds. I think you responded appropriately. I like the idea of talking to lawyers. The media may be a route as well.
An idea I have not seen mentioned, is to organize a photo walk. Paranoid lady doesn't like a photographer in the area, how about twenty photographers? |
If the police won't expunge it when requested, then maybe a trip to the media is in order. Last time I checked, lawyers aren't free, and you shouldn't have to suffer the financial burden of defending yourself from doing absolutely nothing wrong. |
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04/02/2015 05:53:49 PM · #49 |
A slight change of direction, but...
One thing I always keep in the back of my mind is that "deleted" files are not really deleted, and are easily recoverable as long as no new data is recorded over them. Being asked to delete my files has, on occasion, been the least of my worries. It may not be legally required, but why unnecessarily provoke? |
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04/02/2015 06:05:13 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by jemison:
It may not be legally required, but why unnecessarily provoke? |
Because if you don't defend your rights they will no longer exist. |
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