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03/29/2013 04:29:11 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
I am not a follower of the Catholic faith, nor do I know anything more about the new pope, other than what the media has decided to show me.
However, that being said... I'm wondering how DPC passing judgement upon a person whom we do not know, is any less hypocritical than some of us suppose him to be? Good or bad, it will show up in the long run, and the world will not need us to figure it out.
But we could take a picture.... ;-) |
I agree. Well... I'd have called it a "photo" , but... yeah. :)
I wouldn't want to be him. I would not want the world to critique my every action and judge me according to what they thought my motives were/are.
I'm not pure... but, I do try. I'm sure he sins... and he'd be the first to say it.
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03/29/2013 05:24:01 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
I think that type of pride, being proud of one's achievements, is different than being prideful. Selfish pride (hubris) which is what I was referring to.
Also for Ray humility of character (modesty and respect) is different than being pious (modest living). Piety is alsoa discipline and it's opposite would be greed, which leads to that sense of need for gold plated chalices! |
With all due respect, your definitions seem a bit strange to me. Especially for "hubris", which is a term from Greek tragedy and denotes overwhelming pride and arrogance, leading to feeling oneself equal to the gods. In other words, "hubris" is a degree of pride, not a type of pride. One can be selfishly prideful and yet not guilty of hubris.
Also, to say that the opposite of "piety" is "greed" strikes me as bizarre. Piety is the quality of being religious or reverent (at least in this context) and its opposite would be IMpiety, with the mocking or scorning of religion being the extreme of that.
The opposite of greed, more properly, would be generosity or charity, I think.
ETA: there can, of course, be "false piety", which would denote going through the motions but with an impious heart or motivation.
Message edited by author 2013-03-29 21:25:22. |
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03/29/2013 05:54:49 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
I hope the folks here are right and this Pope does take things in a different direction. That would be nice change of pace. |
What's with the capitalization bling?
Message edited by author 2013-03-29 21:55:19. |
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03/29/2013 06:28:02 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
I think that type of pride, being proud of one's achievements, is different than being prideful. Selfish pride (hubris) which is what I was referring to.
Also for Ray humility of character (modesty and respect) is different than being pious (modest living). Piety is alsoa discipline and it's opposite would be greed, which leads to that sense of need for gold plated chalices! |
With all due respect, your definitions seem a bit strange to me. Especially for "hubris", which is a term from Greek tragedy and denotes overwhelming pride and arrogance, leading to feeling oneself equal to the gods. In other words, "hubris" is a degree of pride, not a type of pride. One can be selfishly prideful and yet not guilty of hubris.
Also, to say that the opposite of "piety" is "greed" strikes me as bizarre. Piety is the quality of being religious or reverent (at least in this context) and its opposite would be IMpiety, with the mocking or scorning of religion being the extreme of that.
The opposite of greed, more properly, would be generosity or charity, I think.
ETA: there can, of course, be "false piety", which would denote going through the motions but with an impious heart or motivation. |
Well, I'm no poet but I know what I mean.
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03/29/2013 06:57:13 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
Well, I'm no poet but I know what I mean. |
Alrighty :-) It's not a world of difference, anyway... |
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03/29/2013 07:24:46 PM · #31 |
| My take so far is that he truly is a humble man which is a condition of his heart and belief, I agree that taken to extremes it can be perceived as being fake and contrived but only God can no his heart and know why he does what he does. From what I understand he is doing what he has always done and this is in no way out of character for him. When people place men on a pedestal there are always people hoping they fall just to prove their faith is false and their religion is a sham. Just because he became Pope does not me he does not face the same temptations and desires but hopefully the way he handles those temptations can be a positive example to others. I am not a Catholic but so far I admire how he is handling the transition, it is a position that could easily go to someones head. |
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03/29/2013 07:57:17 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
I hope the folks here are right and this Pope does take things in a different direction. That would be nice change of pace. |
What's with the capitalization bling? |
Guess I assumed that was standard. ;) See thread title. |
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03/29/2013 09:17:19 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
I think that type of pride, being proud of one's achievements, is different than being prideful. Selfish pride (hubris) which is what I was referring to.
Also for Ray humility of character (modesty and respect) is different than being pious (modest living). Piety is alsoa discipline and it's opposite would be greed, which leads to that sense of need for gold plated chalices! |
With all due respect, your definitions seem a bit strange to me. Especially for "hubris", which is a term from Greek tragedy and denotes overwhelming pride and arrogance, leading to feeling oneself equal to the gods. In other words, "hubris" is a degree of pride, not a type of pride. One can be selfishly prideful and yet not guilty of hubris.
Also, to say that the opposite of "piety" is "greed" strikes me as bizarre. Piety is the quality of being religious or reverent (at least in this context) and its opposite would be IMpiety, with the mocking or scorning of religion being the extreme of that.
The opposite of greed, more properly, would be generosity or charity, I think.
ETA: there can, of course, be "false piety", which would denote going through the motions but with an impious heart or motivation. |
Well, I'm no poet but I know what I mean. |
I'm thinking I should change my username to Impieus The Great..
Good idea? ;) |
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03/30/2013 02:49:13 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I'm thinking I should change my username to Impieus The Great..
Good idea? ;) |
I don't know...I could support "Impieus One".
Rather difficult to agree to the suffix "Great" when there is no other standard to compare you to. :O)
Ray |
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03/30/2013 02:51:11 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by jomari:
[quote=RayEthier]
Doesn't say much for some that practice their religion in ornate palaces, replete with stained glass windows, marble floors and gold chalices does it?
No - but this practice has given the world some awesome art and architecture. |
...Surely you are not suggesting that this could not have been achieved in more modest of surroundings.
Ray |
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03/30/2013 03:02:43 AM · #36 |
Exactly what I'm suggesting.
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03/30/2013 03:13:48 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by jomari:
Exactly what I'm suggesting. |
I guess that pretty much covers the piety and humility aspects of the discussion at hand.
It would seem that we are seeing this from totally different perspectives and will simply have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Ray
Message edited by author 2013-03-30 07:15:27. |
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03/30/2013 03:37:04 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by mikeee:
Would he do it if the cameras weren't there? |
Does the fact he's already been doing this for years in Argentina answer your question? |
Waht about the rest of the question? Will he do it next week? No. It's a ceremonial task. I'm sure the prisoners can wash their own feet.
Will he remove the blatant hypocrisy within the Church?
Message edited by author 2013-03-30 10:32:02. |
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03/30/2013 03:43:46 AM · #39 |
I think you may misunderstand me. I am not defending pomp and ceremony and greed and lavish displays of wealth and power in connection with worship, I'm merely observing that there are some pretty fabulous material artifacts derived from such things and that I appreciate their beauty.
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03/30/2013 05:35:23 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by jomari:
I think you may misunderstand me. I am not defending pomp and ceremony and greed and lavish displays of wealth and power in connection with worship, I'm merely observing that there are some pretty fabulous material artifacts derived from such things and that I appreciate their beauty. |
You are absolutely right... I did misunderstand you completely and I apologize for that.
Ray |
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03/30/2013 08:41:52 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
Waht about the rest of the question? Will he do it next week? No. It's a ceremonial task. I'm sure the prisoners can wash their own feet.
Will he remove the blatant hypocrisy within the Church? |
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity.
The only way to remove hypocrisy would be to remove all the people. You speak as if hypocrisy only exists within the church when it actually exists everywhere. Elimination hypocrisy is one of those noble goals that is worth undertaking while knowing it will never be accomplished.
It sounded like you were advocating the removal of any hypocritical institution. I'm afraid that would eliminate every human institution known to man including our government. |
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03/30/2013 12:03:08 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by mikeee:
Waht about the rest of the question? Will he do it next week? No. It's a ceremonial task. I'm sure the prisoners can wash their own feet.
Will he remove the blatant hypocrisy within the Church? |
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity.
The only way to remove hypocrisy would be to remove all the people. You speak as if hypocrisy only exists within the church when it actually exists everywhere. Elimination hypocrisy is one of those noble goals that is worth undertaking while knowing it will never be accomplished.
It sounded like you were advocating the removal of any hypocritical institution. I'm afraid that would eliminate every human institution known to man including our government. |
To be fair Doc, he did say "blatant" which, from my perspective at least, is a tad different than "any".
I took his comment to mean that the church might be better served if it scaled down some of the glitter that seems to be associated with a lot of the churches.
There is no doubt that Pope Francis seems to be on the right track in this regard and I wish him well in his endeavours.
Ray
Message edited by author 2013-03-30 16:04:01. |
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03/30/2013 01:04:00 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity. |
Exactly, symbolic gesture. It's what people and leaders do when the cameras aren't on them that matter. Let's hope he frees up some of that money to help the poor and promotes contraception. Oh, and let women have a proper role in the Church. Maybe a woman Pope in the next 50 years? |
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03/30/2013 02:05:21 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity. |
Exactly, symbolic gesture. It's what people and leaders do when the cameras aren't on them that matter. Let's hope he frees up some of that money to help the poor and promotes contraception. Oh, and let women have a proper role in the Church. Maybe a woman Pope in the next 50 years? |
I don't see that happening any time soon. He may be humble, but he's also a hardcore traditionalist. |
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03/30/2013 03:12:56 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity. |
Exactly, symbolic gesture. It's what people and leaders do when the cameras aren't on them that matter. Let's hope he frees up some of that money to help the poor and promotes contraception. Oh, and let women have a proper role in the Church. Maybe a woman Pope in the next 50 years? |
Uh, you do realize the Catholic Church would be the largest NGO in the world in its efforts to help the poor, right? I sense you simply have your mind made up about the church and craft an image to validate it... |
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03/30/2013 03:27:37 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by alohadave:
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity. |
Exactly, symbolic gesture. It's what people and leaders do when the cameras aren't on them that matter. Let's hope he frees up some of that money to help the poor and promotes contraception. Oh, and let women have a proper role in the Church. Maybe a woman Pope in the next 50 years? |
I don't see that happening any time soon. He may be humble, but he's also a hardcore traditionalist. |
Exactly what you said. A nice face and a humble man, but a strong traditionalist. This is what he thinks of women: Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, said that "women are naturally helpless to exercise political positions", referring to the presidential candidacy of Senator Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. "The natural order and the facts show us that man is the being for politics by excellence; the Scriptures show us that the woman is always the support of the thoughtful man and and doer, but nothing more than that".
Catholic Church simply needed a good face... nothing is going to change. |
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03/30/2013 03:36:36 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity. |
Exactly, symbolic gesture. It's what people and leaders do when the cameras aren't on them that matter. Let's hope he frees up some of that money to help the poor and promotes contraception. Oh, and let women have a proper role in the Church. Maybe a woman Pope in the next 50 years? |
Uh, you do realize the Catholic Church would be the largest NGO in the world in its efforts to help the poor, right? I sense you simply have your mind made up about the church and craft an image to validate it... |
Aww, come-on, Jason. Even I (who rarely argues on this subject) have got issues with that statement. Yeah, the Catholic Church may be the biggest NGO to help the poor, especially through the service of its nuns. But how would you rank the injustices of that edifice, using for example those poor kids whose priests violated them with impunity? Or perhaps there isn't a ranking for that kind of iniquity.
Sorry, this will probably get the thread sent to Rant, but sometimes, it needs to be said. |
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03/30/2013 03:55:20 PM · #48 |
Grumblings over pope's acts of humility
"VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis has won over many hearts and minds with his simple style and focus on serving the world's poorest, but he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy. Francis' decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls — a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic — during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw..."
It's early yet, but I am liking this guy so far. |
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03/30/2013 04:14:13 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity. |
Exactly, symbolic gesture. It's what people and leaders do when the cameras aren't on them that matter. Let's hope he frees up some of that money to help the poor and promotes contraception. Oh, and let women have a proper role in the Church. Maybe a woman Pope in the next 50 years? |
Uh, you do realize the Catholic Church would be the largest NGO in the world in its efforts to help the poor, right? I sense you simply have your mind made up about the church and craft an image to validate it... |
Aww, come-on, Jason. Even I (who rarely argues on this subject) have got issues with that statement. Yeah, the Catholic Church may be the biggest NGO to help the poor, especially through the service of its nuns. But how would you rank the injustices of that edifice, using for example those poor kids whose priests violated them with impunity? Or perhaps there isn't a ranking for that kind of iniquity.
Sorry, this will probably get the thread sent to Rant, but sometimes, it needs to be said. |
We don't need to let this go to Rant. You are simply conflating two separate issues. The sex scandal, as monstrous as it was, has very little to do with the church's call to serve the poor. Even if these few priests somehow targetted the poor, and I have no evidence to say this is the case, it still isn't relevant to the charge that the church should sell some of their nice stuff to give to the poor. I'm gonna have to give you a "c'mon! " right back atcha. ;) |
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03/30/2013 05:25:32 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's a symbolic gesture to celebrate Easter, our Savior, and the heart of Christianity. |
Exactly, symbolic gesture. It's what people and leaders do when the cameras aren't on them that matter. Let's hope he frees up some of that money to help the poor and promotes contraception. Oh, and let women have a proper role in the Church. Maybe a woman Pope in the next 50 years? |
Uh, you do realize the Catholic Church would be the largest NGO in the world in its efforts to help the poor, right? I sense you simply have your mind made up about the church and craft an image to validate it... |
Aww, come-on, Jason. Even I (who rarely argues on this subject) have got issues with that statement. Yeah, the Catholic Church may be the biggest NGO to help the poor, especially through the service of its nuns. But how would you rank the injustices of that edifice, using for example those poor kids whose priests violated them with impunity? Or perhaps there isn't a ranking for that kind of iniquity.
Sorry, this will probably get the thread sent to Rant, but sometimes, it needs to be said. |
We don't need to let this go to Rant. You are simply conflating two separate issues. The sex scandal, as monstrous as it was, has very little to do with the church's call to serve the poor. Even if these few priests somehow targetted the poor, and I have no evidence to say this is the case, it still isn't relevant to the charge that the church should sell some of their nice stuff to give to the poor. I'm gonna have to give you a "c'mon! " right back atcha. ;) |
Well, Jason, I'm not going to let this get to be a tennis match. If you need to have the 'last word' help yourself.
I would only say what I apparently did not say eloquently enough: The wealth of the church needs to help the faithful live fruitful lives, and that, for example, includes those who would be faithful if they were not rejected or abused by the church.
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