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01/24/2013 10:56:59 AM · #826 |
Originally posted by Ann:
I'm much more afraid of running into some gated community Rambo than I am of running into the guy that's trying to steal my car, and you guys aren't helping any. |
Trayvon Martin would have agreed with you. |
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01/24/2013 11:15:08 AM · #827 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Im not backing down from my stance. I may have worded a few things wrong in the 1st place and I am trying to set the record strait.
I am looking to go out and shoot people on my property. |
Now I'm confused.
Is this really what you meant? |
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01/24/2013 11:17:24 AM · #828 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Im not backing down from my stance. I may have worded a few things wrong in the 1st place and I am trying to set the record strait.
I am looking to go out and shoot people on my property. |
Now I'm confused.
Is this really what you meant? |
I'm pretty sure he left out a "not" :-) |
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01/24/2013 11:29:56 AM · #829 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Im not backing down from my stance. I may have worded a few things wrong in the 1st place and I am trying to set the record strait.
I am not looking to go out and shoot people on my property. |
Now I'm confused.
Is this really what you meant? |
oops Bear was right...I left out the not... Ok I fixed it...
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01/24/2013 11:30:44 AM · #830 |
LOL Hear what I mean not what I say
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01/24/2013 11:33:45 AM · #831 |
On another note: Feinstein introduces ban
I have already e-mailed my senator and congressman
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01/24/2013 11:36:57 AM · #832 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Im not backing down from my stance. I may have worded a few things wrong in the 1st place and I am trying to set the record strait.
I am looking to go out and shoot people on my property. However, if I confront someone that is breaking into my car and he acts aggressive towards me there is a good possibility that I will shoot. If I tell him to lay on the concrete he needs to do it.
If you were breaking into something, and a person (that looked like the possible owner) holding a gun told you to lay down. You prob would....But then again there are alot of if's and the situation dictates |
If you want to confront criminals and order them around, I suggest you become a police officer. If you encounter someone stealing change out of your car, and he flees, you probably should get a description and call the police. Brandish a gun, yell menacing things, ok- but it is not reasonable to yell lay down on the concrete or I will shoot you for stealing that 3 dollars.
But perhaps it makes more sense to shoot to kill and make up an elaborate story about "aggressive behavior (essentially the Trayvon Martin case) rather than wing the guy and give an elaborate explanation that goes something like, "well, I told him to freeze and lie down, but he wouldn't, so..."
ANd for Christ sake, there are reasonable reaction to things. Just because you commit a petty theft doesn't mean you should be killed. Imagine your teen son steals a candy bar, walks through the wrong yard, whatever-does something wrong- but gets killed for that? unacceptable. |
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01/24/2013 11:42:24 AM · #833 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Imagine your teen son steals a candy bar, walks through the wrong yard, whatever-does something wrong- but gets killed for that? unacceptable. |
Imagine this, your son comes home late and you shoot him dead because you're somewhat overzealous with the trigger. |
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01/24/2013 11:47:03 AM · #834 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Im not backing down from my stance. I may have worded a few things wrong in the 1st place and I am trying to set the record strait.
I am looking to go out and shoot people on my property. However, if I confront someone that is breaking into my car and he acts aggressive towards me there is a good possibility that I will shoot. If I tell him to lay on the concrete he needs to do it.
If you were breaking into something, and a person (that looked like the possible owner) holding a gun told you to lay down. You prob would....But then again there are alot of if's and the situation dictates |
If you want to confront criminals and order them around, I suggest you become a police officer. If you encounter someone stealing change out of your car, and he flees, you probably should get a description and call the police. Brandish a gun, yell menacing things, ok- but it is not reasonable to yell lay down on the concrete or I will shoot you for stealing that 3 dollars.
But perhaps it makes more sense to shoot to kill and make up an elaborate story about "aggressive behavior (essentially the Trayvon Martin case) rather than wing the guy and give an elaborate explanation that goes something like, "well, I told him to freeze and lie down, but he wouldn't, so..."
ANd for Christ sake, there are reasonable reaction to things. Just because you commit a petty theft doesn't mean you should be killed. Imagine your teen son steals a candy bar, walks through the wrong yard, whatever-does something wrong- but gets killed for that? unacceptable. |
Like I have said before, the situation dictates. In a situation where he is stealing the change out of my cupholder....no I would not react negatively. The only prob I lock my doors and arm the alarm. That is everytime I exit the vehicle. This means he would have been using a slimjim or he broke my window. Then I would hold him there til the cops came. Chances are at that point he was looking to do more than steal my pocket change.
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01/24/2013 11:49:00 AM · #835 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Im not backing down from my stance. I may have worded a few things wrong in the 1st place and I am trying to set the record strait.
I am looking to go out and shoot people on my property. However, if I confront someone that is breaking into my car and he acts aggressive towards me there is a good possibility that I will shoot. If I tell him to lay on the concrete he needs to do it.
If you were breaking into something, and a person (that looked like the possible owner) holding a gun told you to lay down. You prob would....But then again there are alot of if's and the situation dictates |
If you want to confront criminals and order them around, I suggest you become a police officer. If you encounter someone stealing change out of your car, and he flees, you probably should get a description and call the police. Brandish a gun, yell menacing things, ok- but it is not reasonable to yell lay down on the concrete or I will shoot you for stealing that 3 dollars.
But perhaps it makes more sense to shoot to kill and make up an elaborate story about "aggressive behavior (essentially the Trayvon Martin case) rather than wing the guy and give an elaborate explanation that goes something like, "well, I told him to freeze and lie down, but he wouldn't, so..."
ANd for Christ sake, there are reasonable reaction to things. Just because you commit a petty theft doesn't mean you should be killed. Imagine your teen son steals a candy bar, walks through the wrong yard, whatever-does something wrong- but gets killed for that? unacceptable. |
Like I have said before, the situation dictates. In a situation where he is stealing the change out of my cupholder....no I would not react negatively. The only prob I lock my doors and arm the alarm. That is everytime I exit the vehicle. This means he would have been using a slimjim or he broke my window. Then I would hold him there til the cops came. Chances are at that point he was looking to do more than steal my pocket change. |
So the question becomes, what force is reasonable during a citizen's arrest? |
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01/24/2013 11:49:34 AM · #836 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Imagine your teen son steals a candy bar, walks through the wrong yard, whatever-does something wrong- but gets killed for that? unacceptable. |
Imagine this, your son comes home late and you shoot him dead because you're somewhat overzealous with the trigger. |
1st of all you need to identify yourself. Don't shoot 1st and ask questions later. Then if there is a threat, take it from there
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01/24/2013 11:50:33 AM · #837 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Im not backing down from my stance. I may have worded a few things wrong in the 1st place and I am trying to set the record strait.
I am looking to go out and shoot people on my property. However, if I confront someone that is breaking into my car and he acts aggressive towards me there is a good possibility that I will shoot. If I tell him to lay on the concrete he needs to do it.
If you were breaking into something, and a person (that looked like the possible owner) holding a gun told you to lay down. You prob would....But then again there are alot of if's and the situation dictates |
If you want to confront criminals and order them around, I suggest you become a police officer. If you encounter someone stealing change out of your car, and he flees, you probably should get a description and call the police. Brandish a gun, yell menacing things, ok- but it is not reasonable to yell lay down on the concrete or I will shoot you for stealing that 3 dollars.
But perhaps it makes more sense to shoot to kill and make up an elaborate story about "aggressive behavior (essentially the Trayvon Martin case) rather than wing the guy and give an elaborate explanation that goes something like, "well, I told him to freeze and lie down, but he wouldn't, so..."
ANd for Christ sake, there are reasonable reaction to things. Just because you commit a petty theft doesn't mean you should be killed. Imagine your teen son steals a candy bar, walks through the wrong yard, whatever-does something wrong- but gets killed for that? unacceptable. |
Like I have said before, the situation dictates. In a situation where he is stealing the change out of my cupholder....no I would not react negatively. The only prob I lock my doors and arm the alarm. That is everytime I exit the vehicle. This means he would have been using a slimjim or he broke my window. Then I would hold him there til the cops came. Chances are at that point he was looking to do more than steal my pocket change. |
So the question becomes, what force is reasonable during a citizen's arrest? |
depends on if he has a weapon or tries anything
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01/24/2013 11:50:42 AM · #838 |
You have a gun.
You want to be able to use it in an argument, to kill the people you argue with, but want to make sure you can not be charged with that killing.
Do you understand that those who do not own guns see the Castle Doctrine as making it easier for people with guns to get away with murdering them? To be able to win all arguments, to become the arbiters of life and death. It creates the super-class of humans who can deal death when they feel threatened.
Without the Castle doctrine, when you take a life, you have to defend your actions, because the assumption is that the life you took had value. You must show that the only reason you took that life was that your life or the life of another was in danger, because the only thing that has equivalent value to a human life is another human life.
With the Castle Doctrine you have permission to kill anyone if you feel threatened by or fear you might be at risk losing some spare change in a transaction. So a human life is worth less than a few coins or the feelings of the gun owner. With the Castle doctrine human life has no special value, but guns and the willingness to use them quickly, become the most valuable asset there is.
Message edited by author 2013-01-24 16:52:48. |
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01/24/2013 11:53:57 AM · #839 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
1st of all you need to identify yourself. Don't shoot 1st and ask questions later. Then if there is a threat, take it from there |
If you read the story, the shooter was a 42 year veteran of the Chicago police force. If he's able to make mistakes, it's not a far stretch to assume regular citizens can also.
Message edited by author 2013-01-24 16:54:10. |
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01/24/2013 11:58:11 AM · #840 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Spork99:
If a person has broken into my house or otherwise threatened my safety, unless they turn tail and run or become compliant and lay face down on the floor with their hands in sight, I can't afford to assume they are not a threat. |
The current debate isn't really hinging around that, though. I don't have a real quarrel with people who respond to a home invasion by racking a round up. That's appropriate. Protecting your family is good.
No, what we're bemoaning right now is an attitude we're seeing expressed that "If you touch my stuff, I'm gunning for you!" Adam's backing down from that stance a bit now, thank goodness, but it still represents a sort of macho-istic prevailing attitude amongst some significant minority of the population. It's scary. It's not rational. Theft is going to happen. Violence in response doesn't have to. |
No gun owner, concealed permit holder or policeman I know wants to shoot anyone. None of them have that attitude. The problem isn't theft, it's how the situation escalates when the perpetrator is confronted. If you have ever encountered an intruder or intruders in your house, you'd know that the threat is real...it's about surviving. A truly primal, life or death fear. I've felt it and came within a hair of dropping the guy and his accomplice in my living room. Luckily for everyone they ran. It didn't stop them. A few nights later another home in the neighborhood was broken into and the occupants beaten while their home was ransacked. |
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01/24/2013 12:03:10 PM · #841 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
You have a gun.
You want to be able to use it in an argument, to kill the people you argue with, but want to make sure you can not be charged with that killing.
Do you understand that those who do not own guns see the Castle Doctrine as making it easier for people with guns to get away with murdering them? To be able to win all arguments, to become the arbiters of life and death. It creates the super-class of humans who can deal death when they feel threatened.
Without the Castle doctrine, when you take a life, you have to defend your actions, because the assumption is that the life you took had value. You must show that the only reason you took that life was that your life or the life of another was in danger, because the only thing that has equivalent value to a human life is another human life.
With the Castle Doctrine you have permission to kill anyone if you feel threatened by or fear you might be at risk losing some spare change in a transaction. So a human life is worth less than a few coins or the feelings of the gun owner. With the Castle doctrine human life has no special value, but guns and the willingness to use them quickly, become the most valuable asset there is. |
Brennan, with his usual clarity, has articulated the underlying point perfectly. +1 |
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01/24/2013 12:09:20 PM · #842 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
You have a gun.
You want to be able to use it in an argument, to kill the people you argue with, but want to make sure you can not be charged with that killing.
Do you understand that those who do not own guns see the Castle Doctrine as making it easier for people with guns to get away with murdering them? To be able to win all arguments, to become the arbiters of life and death. It creates the super-class of humans who can deal death when they feel threatened.
Without the Castle doctrine, when you take a life, you have to defend your actions, because the assumption is that the life you took had value. You must show that the only reason you took that life was that your life or the life of another was in danger, because the only thing that has equivalent value to a human life is another human life.
With the Castle Doctrine you have permission to kill anyone if you feel threatened by or fear you might be at risk losing some spare change in a transaction. So a human life is worth less than a few coins or the feelings of the gun owner. With the Castle doctrine human life has no special value, but guns and the willingness to use them quickly, become the most valuable asset there is. |
From the other side, the lack of a Castle Doctrine allows the perpetrator (or his family) to use the court system to victimize his victim over and over again. How many times have crime victims been sued been sued by the crime's perpetrator or his family? Those lawsuits require the original victims to pay tens of thousands of dollars in fees even if the lawsuits are dismissed.
The castle doctrine does NOT remove the need for an investigation into the incident and the need for the prosecutor to make a determination that the use of lethal force was indeed justified. |
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01/24/2013 12:09:26 PM · #843 |
and I am sure that your solution is to outlaw all guns...confiscate the ones that are out there so the criminals can pretty much continue doing what they do and removing the ability for most to defend themselves and their property.
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01/24/2013 12:15:07 PM · #844 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
and I am sure that your solution is to outlaw all guns...confiscate the ones that are out there so the criminals can pretty much continue doing what they do and removing the ability for most to defend themselves and their property. |
You are wrong. I like shooting. I think guns are a beautiful tool which have a place in our society. I just think human life has great value.
Message edited by author 2013-01-24 17:16:38. |
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01/24/2013 12:28:01 PM · #845 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
and I am sure that your solution is to outlaw all guns...confiscate the ones that are out there so the criminals can pretty much continue doing what they do and removing the ability for most to defend themselves and their property. |
You are wrong. I like shooting. I think guns are a beautiful tool which have a place in our society. I just think human life has great value. |
Life has value, most of all to the human being whose life is in question...unfortunately some people don't value their own lives or respect the lives of others.
If someone is willing to force me into a situation where my life or that of my family is in jeopardy, it's clear that they do not value life. I will do anything and everything to preserve the lives I value most. |
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01/24/2013 12:30:57 PM · #846 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
and I am sure that your solution is to outlaw all guns...confiscate the ones that are out there so the criminals can pretty much continue doing what they do and removing the ability for most to defend themselves and their property. |
You are wrong. I like shooting. I think guns are a beautiful tool which have a place in our society. I just think human life has great value. |
I believe that life has special value as well...This is why (unless a gun is already pointed at me) I don't shoot 1st. I try to difuse the situation as best I can. I would also let the perp know that I had a loaded weapon
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01/24/2013 01:00:32 PM · #847 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
and I am sure that your solution is to outlaw all guns...confiscate the ones that are out there so the criminals can pretty much continue doing what they do and removing the ability for most to defend themselves and their property. |
You are wrong. I like shooting. I think guns are a beautiful tool which have a place in our society. I just think human life has great value. |
I believe that life has special value as well...This is why (unless a gun is already pointed at me) I don't shoot 1st. I try to difuse the situation as best I can. I would also let the perp know that I had a loaded weapon |
In the real world, situations can get confusing. Is the other guy the perp? Or are you? Or is he just a neighbor's kid, trying to get home from the store in the dark? Or is he Bear_Music, who can't hear it when you pump your shotgun, and doesn't know you're behind him? Did I really remember to set the alarm on my car, or is it raining, and someone is trying to shut my car windows for me? In the dark, can you tell if he has a gun or a soda can? Or is he a policeman? Or is he a Viet Nam vet who's suicidal and trying to get someone to shoot him?
I don't think all guns should be outlawed, but I don't want to live anyplace where it's acceptable to pull out a gun for anything less than a full on threat to human life. The consequences of a mistake are too high. And no, someone breaking into my unoccupied car doesn't come close to meeting the standard where using a gun would be acceptable. |
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01/24/2013 01:08:23 PM · #848 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
It's not about "stuff". If I could somehow know with near certainty that someone is not a threat, they can take my stuff, because stuff is replaceable. However, since I'm not a mind reader, I will err on the side of caution with respect to my safety and that of my family and respond accordingly. If a person has broken into my house or otherwise threatened my safety, unless they turn tail and run or become compliant and lay face down on the floor with their hands in sight, I can't afford to assume they are not a threat. |
,,, I wonder what went through This man's mind following his actions on a perceived threat.
Ray |
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01/24/2013 01:12:57 PM · #849 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
and I am sure that your solution is to outlaw all guns...confiscate the ones that are out there so the criminals can pretty much continue doing what they do and removing the ability for most to defend themselves and their property. |
How can you possibly be sure of anything like this... that my friend is but mere speculation on your part.
I can assure you that I am definitely not one who would outlaw all guns, but I am inclined to share the views of  BrennanOB and  Bear_Music in this regard.
Trust me when I say this, but jumping to conclusions will not improve your physical condition. :O)
Ray |
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01/24/2013 01:13:57 PM · #850 |
oh yeah well what do you do if a clan of trans-sexual nazi eskimos surround you.
By the way I am sorry if this offends anyone while I am trying to inject some humor into the thread.
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