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01/09/2013 11:26:22 AM · #401 |
I want to make sure I understand both of you.
There's empirical evidence that other first world nations which have fewer guns per capita have fewer murders via firearms per capita, fewer accidental deaths via firearms per capita, and fewer suicide via firearms per capita, but we shouldn't do any comparisons.
I'm not an idiot and know different countries have different cultures and whatnot, but it's every industrialized first world country which trounces the US on these numbers. |
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01/09/2013 11:33:02 AM · #402 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Cars. Guns. Nuclear weapons.
Which one is primarily designed not to kill people? |
Which one kills the most people each year? |
Red herring. Irrelevant to the discussion about guns. |
Not at all unless you also consider firearm related deaths irrelevant. |
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01/09/2013 11:34:39 AM · #403 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I want to make sure I understand both of you.
There's empirical evidence that other first world nations which have fewer guns per capita have fewer murders via firearms per capita, fewer accidental deaths via firearms per capita, and fewer suicide via firearms per capita, but we shouldn't do any comparisons.
I'm not an idiot and know different countries have different cultures and whatnot, but it's every industrialized first world country which trounces the US on these numbers. |
I see the data as I am the one providing the links confirming said data. I think that, to your point, the culture in Japan makes it a little easier to impose an out right ban and it would be easier to collect 700 thousand guns than 270 million guns. But that is neither here nor there because Japan's constitution does not have a "Bill of Rights" that guarantees this personal freedom so I reiterate that this is not a valid comparison.
Message edited by author 2013-01-09 16:38:24. |
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01/09/2013 11:39:24 AM · #404 |
| Neither do we, we just have a powerful lobby group make sure its interpreted that way. |
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01/09/2013 11:41:19 AM · #405 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Cars. Guns. Nuclear weapons.
Which one is primarily designed not to kill people? |
Which one kills the most people each year? |
Which kills the most people per use? You can only compare car and gun deaths if you take into account how often each is used in a public space, something like deaths/passenger-miles driven compared to deaths/legally-fired rounds.
Also note that while virtually every automobile death is considered "accidental" (even if there is a component of negligence), most gun homocides are intentional.
And you can't use your gun to bring home groceries or drop your kid at day care ... |
Most other homicides are just as intentional.
You can't use a car to defend yourself or your kids against an intruder, it's also not very a effective tool for hunting. I mean you can kill a deer with it, but most of the meat gets messed up especially if you're going fast enough to kill it humanely. You'll also have to spend a lot to repair your vehicle if you use it for hunting that way. I suppose you could hunt smaller animals, but they're usually destroyed. Hunting bigger prey like Elk or Moose isn't really safe or advisable. |
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01/09/2013 11:45:11 AM · #406 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Neither do we, we just have a powerful lobby group make sure its interpreted that way. |
So you're saying that the SCOTUS is a pro gun lobby? And the "Bill of Rights" does not exist? I am struggling with this statement...
Message edited by author 2013-01-09 16:50:21. |
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01/09/2013 11:50:17 AM · #407 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Neither do we, we just have a powerful lobby group make sure its interpreted that way. |
So your are saying that the SCOTUS is a pro gun lobby? And the "Bill of Rights" does not exist? I am struggling with this statement... |
This refers to the more recent interpretations by a more conservative court. The proverbial jury is still out on the ultimate "right" granted by the second amendment. It could be interpreted differently in the future. It is certainly not as clear as the 1st amendment- "make no law" provision. |
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01/09/2013 11:50:28 AM · #408 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Neither do we, we just have a powerful lobby group make sure its interpreted that way. |
So your are saying that the SCOTUS is a pro gun lobby? And the "Bill of Rights" does not exist? I am struggling with this statement... |
No I'm saying that SCOTUS made an interpretation just like they have for abortion, since neither is explicitly stated in the BOR. The NRA makes sure that it isn't reevaluated or pass any laws that cause it to be reevaluated. If it said "the right to own guns or rifles"it would be a little more clear cut. Arms is too broad.
Message edited by author 2013-01-09 16:53:41. |
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01/09/2013 11:52:06 AM · #409 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Neither do we, we just have a powerful lobby group make sure its interpreted that way. |
So your are saying that the SCOTUS is a pro gun lobby? And the "Bill of Rights" does not exist? I am struggling with this statement... |
This refers to the more recent interpretations by a more conservative court. The proverbial jury is still out on the ultimate "right" granted by the second amendment. It could be interpreted differently in the future. It is certainly not as clear as the 1st amendment- "make no law" provision. |
I am very aware of the interpretations (conservative court or not) at this point it is the law of the land. |
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01/09/2013 11:52:48 AM · #410 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Neither do we, we just have a powerful lobby group make sure its interpreted that way. |
So your are saying that the SCOTUS is a pro gun lobby? And the "Bill of Rights" does not exist? I am struggling with this statement... |
No I'm saying that SCOTUS made an interpretation just like they have for abortion, since neither is explicitly stated in the BOR. The NRA makes sure that it isn't reevaluated. |
The NRA has NO say on when this is revisited in the courts. |
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01/09/2013 11:54:44 AM · #411 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Neither do we, we just have a powerful lobby group make sure its interpreted that way. |
So your are saying that the SCOTUS is a pro gun lobby? And the "Bill of Rights" does not exist? I am struggling with this statement... |
No I'm saying that SCOTUS made an interpretation just like they have for abortion, since neither is explicitly stated in the BOR. The NRA makes sure that it isn't reevaluated. |
The NRA has NO say on when this is revisited in the courts. |
Nope but they can influence which laws get passed to challenge it. If they had no influence they wouldn't exist. |
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01/09/2013 11:55:40 AM · #412 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Nope but they can influence which laws get passed to challenge it. If they had no influence they wouldn't exist. |
Agreed! |
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01/09/2013 11:59:15 AM · #413 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I want to make sure I understand both of you.
There's empirical evidence that other first world nations which have fewer guns per capita have fewer murders via firearms per capita, fewer accidental deaths via firearms per capita, and fewer suicide via firearms per capita, but we shouldn't do any comparisons.
I'm not an idiot and know different countries have different cultures and whatnot, but it's every industrialized first world country which trounces the US on these numbers. |
You understand me well enough, you're a very smart guy.
I also understand you, but think you're making the mistake of not recognizing the significant effects that seemingly small cultural differences can make.
The Japanese are a great example - they tend to have more consideration for each other in general - and tend to think in such a way that the community's needs are idealized to be more important than those of the individual.
Americans couldn't be more different - we are very much all about the individual, which has a ton of trickle-down effects.
We spend more on healthcare than any other nation, we have more prisoners (per capita and total) than any other nation, we have more crime in general than most other developed nations.
We are a cultural mixing pot, we are wild, we are rebels, we are indeed somewhat reckless, we are Americans. This fact will always play in to any rational discussion about us. Americans used to be proud to be somewhat reckless and brave, the idea of risk was attractive and embraced. Today we seem to be in the middle of a fundamental paradigm shift, where at least parts of the population are becoming much more like the rest of the world - but are being "held back" (for better or worse) by the rest of the population.
It's a guess, but I'm betting that support for gun legislation is MUCH stronger in urban/city areas due to a variety of reasons.
You understand me well enough - what I have my doubts about is whether or not you really understand what it is to "be American"... |
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01/09/2013 12:03:56 PM · #414 |
Instead of focusing solely on Japan, what about Canada, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, .....
When every other country is kicking your ass in healthcare provided, lower crime rate, violence via firearms, and other factors, maybe it's time to change your course. Unless you like where you're heading. |
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01/09/2013 12:05:40 PM · #415 |
Cory is right to a point, id admit that this ought might to be handled at a state level, and may ultimately be. At which point it will spread, slowly, like gay rights.
Message edited by author 2013-01-09 17:08:23. |
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01/09/2013 03:23:38 PM · #416 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Instead of focusing solely on Japan, what about Canada, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, .....
When every other country is kicking your ass in healthcare provided, lower crime rate, violence via firearms, and other factors, maybe it's time to change your course. Unless you like where you're heading. |
These things don't exist in their own little bubbles. Factors like poverty, unemployment, culture, societal values, and many other concerns play into this heavily.
In the case of healthcare, litigation, malpractice lawsuits, and the fact that the US has the burden of the FDA to deal with on every new item or drug are factors.
It's not any one factor, but the interplay between them all.
And, I don't like where we are headed - more legislation, higher costs, fewer services, less freedom. Not a fan at all.
By the way, I do think the healthcare thing is a GREAT example of what heavy regulation does for most things - it has increased costs and decreased real value. I know that you're not really concerned about the guns, but take a clear-headed look at what most US legislation really accomplishes.
Perhaps that's the problem in it's entirety - our government is ineffective and spends about 90% of it's time and resources satisfying its own artificial requirements and in-fighting amongst the various gangs of politicians. Of course, the idea that they actually serve as representatives of the people, and the fantasy that they make decisions for the good of the country is laughable - they seem to be concerned with nothing more than their careers and their donors interests.
Allowing or encouraging our inefficiency to expand through new regulations and new government organizations is only feeding the problem, not fixing it... It's something akin to giving a cancer patient cigarettes to make sure they don't have withdrawals. |
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01/09/2013 03:29:02 PM · #417 |
Here. THIS. This is a facet of the problem culture. (this is only one of about 20 different cultural "types" that are problematic to our society).. The woman acts just like my mother - no matter what anyone does for her, she always "needs" more, and there is never any gratitude to be found. I don't know if the rest of the world is filled with people like this - but damn we seem to have a boat load of them. The attitude is pretty much "Somebody's gonna pay me".
Then, when everyone finally says no to them, they feel put upon, and seek to do harm to the people that they perceived to have "hurt" them - ironically it's often the very people who have done the most for them who are targeted.
Let me make one VERY poignant observation.
NONE of these shooters/mass murderers are affluent, and this type of behavior(pay me), tends to be well correlated with poverty.
Honestly, I can see that pretty much every one of these people were disappointed in what they were achieving in life, and felt put upon, for whatever reason, and chose to take terrible revenge. I'm also pretty sure that these guys didn't just see a gun and do this on impulse.. They planned, they plotted, they stewed, they hesitated, they waited, they fought themselves, and then one day they broke loose and enacted a twisted blend of all of the fantasies scenarios they have been imagining for years. It's a pattern that's just super obvious in so many of these cases - it's a disease that has nothing to do with the guns in truth.
Fix that attitude, that response, and you've fixed the problem. But fix anything less, and the problem will remain - perhaps it will stew longer into a more destructive, but less frequent, type of event. Perhaps it will be the same frequency will a lower number of casualties. Perhaps very little will change at all...
Truly, it should be obvious that banning the means to the end won't discourage the highly determined person - a bit like really really high end locks on high security doors - you can't pick it, and you can't bust down the door or bypass the lock, but it's quite a simple matter to go through the wall next to the door and just bypass the whole thing... It's just a matter of determination and ingenuity.
The problem with my plan is that it's just about as likely that everyone will be rich as it is that everyone will not own guns. Never.Gonna.Happen.
Message edited by author 2013-01-09 20:48:04. |
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01/09/2013 03:47:00 PM · #418 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Here. THIS. This is a facet of the problem culture. (this is only one of about 20 different cultural "types" that are problematic to our society).. The woman acts just like my mother - no matter what anyone does for her, she always "needs" more, and there is never any gratitude to be found. I don't know if the rest of the world is filled with people like this - but damn we seem to have a boat load of them. The attitude is pretty much "Somebody's gonna pay me".
Then, when everyone finally says no to them, they feel put upon, and seek to do harm to the people that they perceived to have "hurt" them - ironically it's often the very people who have done the most for them who are targeted.
Let me make one VERY poignant observation.
NONE of these shooters/mass murderers are affluent, and this type of behavior(pay me), tends to be well correlated with poverty.
Honestly, I can see that pretty much every one of these people were disappointed in what they were achieving in life, and felt put upon, for whatever reason, and chose to take terrible revenge. Fix that attitude, that response, and you've fixed the problem.
The problem with my plan is that it's just about as likely that everyone will be rich as it is that everyone will not own guns. Never.Gonna.Happen. |
OMG she thinks it's the states fault.....Ya'll need to take care of my babies.....If you have 15 babies and cant afford one...you should prob be sterilized after 5...and I am being leinient
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01/09/2013 03:51:24 PM · #419 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here. THIS. This is a facet of the problem culture. (this is only one of about 20 different cultural "types" that are problematic to our society).. The woman acts just like my mother - no matter what anyone does for her, she always "needs" more, and there is never any gratitude to be found. I don't know if the rest of the world is filled with people like this - but damn we seem to have a boat load of them. The attitude is pretty much "Somebody's gonna pay me".
Then, when everyone finally says no to them, they feel put upon, and seek to do harm to the people that they perceived to have "hurt" them - ironically it's often the very people who have done the most for them who are targeted.
Let me make one VERY poignant observation.
NONE of these shooters/mass murderers are affluent, and this type of behavior(pay me), tends to be well correlated with poverty.
Honestly, I can see that pretty much every one of these people were disappointed in what they were achieving in life, and felt put upon, for whatever reason, and chose to take terrible revenge. I'm also pretty sure that these guys didn't just see a gun and do this on impulse.. They planned, they plotted, they stewed, they hesitated, they waited, they fought themselves, and then one day they broke loose and enacted a twisted blend of all of the fantasies scenarios they have been imagining for years. It's a pattern that's just super obvious in so many of these cases - it's a disease that has nothing to do with the guns in truth.
Fix that attitude, that response, and you've fixed the problem. But fix anything less, and the problem will remain - perhaps it will stew longer into a more destructive, but less frequent, type of event. Perhaps it will be the same frequency will a lower number of casualties. Perhaps very little will change at all...
Truly, it should be obvious that banning the means to the end won't discourage the highly determined person - a bit like really really high end locks on high security doors - you can't pick it, and you can't bust down the door or bypass the lock, but it's quite a simple matter to go through the wall next to the door and just bypass the whole thing... It's just a matter of determination and ingenuity.
The problem with my plan is that it's just about as likely that everyone will be rich as it is that everyone will not own guns. Never.Gonna.Happen.
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OMG she thinks it's the states fault.....Ya'll need to take care of my babies.....If you have 15 babies and cant afford one...you should prob be sterilized after 5...and I am being leinient |
But, then how would she ever have 15!? Your statement is a like some twisted literary version of the grandfather paradox. ;)
Message edited by author 2013-01-09 20:52:25. |
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01/09/2013 04:06:29 PM · #420 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here. THIS. This is a facet of the problem culture. (this is only one of about 20 different cultural "types" that are problematic to our society).. The woman acts just like my mother - no matter what anyone does for her, she always "needs" more, and there is never any gratitude to be found. I don't know if the rest of the world is filled with people like this - but damn we seem to have a boat load of them. The attitude is pretty much "Somebody's gonna pay me".
Then, when everyone finally says no to them, they feel put upon, and seek to do harm to the people that they perceived to have "hurt" them - ironically it's often the very people who have done the most for them who are targeted.
Let me make one VERY poignant observation.
NONE of these shooters/mass murderers are affluent, and this type of behavior(pay me), tends to be well correlated with poverty.
Honestly, I can see that pretty much every one of these people were disappointed in what they were achieving in life, and felt put upon, for whatever reason, and chose to take terrible revenge. Fix that attitude, that response, and you've fixed the problem.
The problem with my plan is that it's just about as likely that everyone will be rich as it is that everyone will not own guns. Never.Gonna.Happen. |
OMG she thinks it's the states fault.....Ya'll need to take care of my babies.....If you have 15 babies and cant afford one...you should prob be sterilized after 5...and I am being leinient |
I thought you were pro freedom? |
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01/09/2013 04:14:59 PM · #421 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here. THIS. This is a facet of the problem culture. (this is only one of about 20 different cultural "types" that are problematic to our society).. The woman acts just like my mother - no matter what anyone does for her, she always "needs" more, and there is never any gratitude to be found. I don't know if the rest of the world is filled with people like this - but damn we seem to have a boat load of them. The attitude is pretty much "Somebody's gonna pay me".
Then, when everyone finally says no to them, they feel put upon, and seek to do harm to the people that they perceived to have "hurt" them - ironically it's often the very people who have done the most for them who are targeted.
Let me make one VERY poignant observation.
NONE of these shooters/mass murderers are affluent, and this type of behavior(pay me), tends to be well correlated with poverty.
Honestly, I can see that pretty much every one of these people were disappointed in what they were achieving in life, and felt put upon, for whatever reason, and chose to take terrible revenge. Fix that attitude, that response, and you've fixed the problem.
The problem with my plan is that it's just about as likely that everyone will be rich as it is that everyone will not own guns. Never.Gonna.Happen. |
OMG she thinks it's the states fault.....Ya'll need to take care of my babies.....If you have 15 babies and cant afford one...you should prob be sterilized after 5...and I am being leinient |
The funny thing is how many "pro-life" people will condemn her. Do away with abortion and this will be the new normal. Free access to the pill and welfare reform that stops at how many children you have when you apply usually fixes these types of situations. |
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01/09/2013 04:19:26 PM · #422 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here. THIS. This is a facet of the problem culture. (this is only one of about 20 different cultural "types" that are problematic to our society).. The woman acts just like my mother - no matter what anyone does for her, she always "needs" more, and there is never any gratitude to be found. I don't know if the rest of the world is filled with people like this - but damn we seem to have a boat load of them. The attitude is pretty much "Somebody's gonna pay me".
Then, when everyone finally says no to them, they feel put upon, and seek to do harm to the people that they perceived to have "hurt" them - ironically it's often the very people who have done the most for them who are targeted.
Let me make one VERY poignant observation.
NONE of these shooters/mass murderers are affluent, and this type of behavior(pay me), tends to be well correlated with poverty.
Honestly, I can see that pretty much every one of these people were disappointed in what they were achieving in life, and felt put upon, for whatever reason, and chose to take terrible revenge. Fix that attitude, that response, and you've fixed the problem.
The problem with my plan is that it's just about as likely that everyone will be rich as it is that everyone will not own guns. Never.Gonna.Happen. |
OMG she thinks it's the states fault.....Ya'll need to take care of my babies.....If you have 15 babies and cant afford one...you should prob be sterilized after 5...and I am being leinient |
I thought you were pro freedom? |
I am pro freedom...But I dont think the state or fed govmt should pay for my mistakes. If I had 15 children (this would not happen because I would take the responsible approach) but if it did...I would be working multiple jobs and trying to supply as much money that I could to the family.
Like I said I am pro freedom but you have to use common sense in your freedoms. If it causes taxpayers to have a burden don't do it...This is one thing wrong with the south. This also mandates a need for guns to protect your family and property.
In my town, around 90% of break-ins happen on the north-side...somewhere about 85% of the people committing the crimes come from the south-side....
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01/09/2013 04:31:07 PM · #423 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
...This is one thing wrong with the south. This also mandates a need for guns to protect your family and property. |
You think this problem's isolated in the "South"? Check out Detroit, Chicago, much of the Northeastern corridor... You have this problem wherever there's extreme poverty.
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
In my town, around 90% of break-ins happen on the north-side...somewhere about 85% of the people committing the crimes come from the south-side.... |
What does that prove? Poor people steal from people that have stuff?
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
This also mandates a need for guns to protect your family and property. |
It just blows me away that otherwise rational people can believe that the appropriate response to threats against property is deadly force. |
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01/09/2013 04:33:30 PM · #424 |
It seems that we may have managed to miss the real point of that post over the interesting example I chose to include.
The attitude is the real problem, the idea that "Somebody's gonna pay me".
Then, when everyone finally says no to them, they feel put upon, and seek to do harm to the people that they perceived to have "hurt" them - ironically it's often the very people who have done the most for them who are targeted.
AND LEST WE FOCUS on her race, or location, or number of kids - let's first remember that I could be talking about a college kid who's turned down for the financial help he thought he deserved, and without which his whole life seems to be worthless because he will fail to get what he thought he deserved (the degree, then the money and ability that comes with $). Or it could be the farmer who thinks the city council has screwed him into losing the farm - or perhaps it was the bank. The pilot who has been ruined by the IRS, etc. The attitude is present in a huge number of cultures in highly variable living situations.
Still, here's a very interesting observation:
NONE of these shooters/mass murderers are affluent, and this type of behavior(pay me), tends to be well correlated with poverty.
Honestly, I can see that pretty much every one of these people were disappointed in what they were achieving in life, and felt put upon, for whatever reason, and chose to take terrible revenge. I'm also pretty sure that these guys didn't just see a gun and do this on impulse.. They planned, they plotted, they stewed, they hesitated, they waited, they fought themselves, and then one day they broke loose and enacted a twisted blend of all of the fantasies scenarios they have been imagining for years. It's a pattern that's just super obvious in so many of these cases - it's a disease that has nothing to do with the guns in truth.
Fix that attitude, that response, and you've fixed the problem. But fix anything less, and the problem will remain - perhaps it will stew longer into a more destructive, but less frequent, type of event. Perhaps it will be the same frequency will a lower number of casualties. Perhaps very little will change at all...
Truly, it should be obvious that banning the means to the end won't discourage the highly determined person - a bit like really really high end locks on high security doors - you can't pick it, and you can't bust down the door or bypass the lock, but it's quite a simple matter to go through the wall next to the door and just bypass the whole thing... It's just a matter of determination and ingenuity.
The problem with my plan is that it's just about as likely that everyone will be rich as it is that everyone will not own guns. Never.Gonna.Happen.
So, where is my premise here wrong? These really aren't impulse crimes, they're really not happening because someone got mad and shot someone else(that happens a lot too, but the requirement to stop that is MUCH higher), we're talking about the people who want revenge. Even fully getting rid of the guns isn't going to be enough (see Bath School, or any one of a dozen other incidents).
I too desire a society where people don't perforate each other randomly, I'm just not at all confident that I've heard a viable plan to even come close.
Message edited by author 2013-01-09 21:39:34. |
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01/09/2013 04:39:06 PM · #425 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here. THIS. This is a facet of the problem culture. (this is only one of about 20 different cultural "types" that are problematic to our society).. The woman acts just like my mother - no matter what anyone does for her, she always "needs" more, and there is never any gratitude to be found. I don't know if the rest of the world is filled with people like this - but damn we seem to have a boat load of them. The attitude is pretty much "Somebody's gonna pay me".
Then, when everyone finally says no to them, they feel put upon, and seek to do harm to the people that they perceived to have "hurt" them - ironically it's often the very people who have done the most for them who are targeted.
Let me make one VERY poignant observation.
NONE of these shooters/mass murderers are affluent, and this type of behavior(pay me), tends to be well correlated with poverty.
Honestly, I can see that pretty much every one of these people were disappointed in what they were achieving in life, and felt put upon, for whatever reason, and chose to take terrible revenge. Fix that attitude, that response, and you've fixed the problem.
The problem with my plan is that it's just about as likely that everyone will be rich as it is that everyone will not own guns. Never.Gonna.Happen. |
OMG she thinks it's the states fault.....Ya'll need to take care of my babies.....If you have 15 babies and cant afford one...you should prob be sterilized after 5...and I am being leinient |
I thought you were pro freedom? |
I am pro freedom...But I dont think the state or fed govmt should pay for my mistakes. If I had 15 children (this would not happen because I would take the responsible approach) but if it did...I would be working multiple jobs and trying to supply as much money that I could to the family.
Like I said I am pro freedom but you have to use common sense in your freedoms. If it causes taxpayers to have a burden don't do it...This is one thing wrong with the south. This also mandates a need for guns to protect your family and property.
In my town, around 90% of break-ins happen on the north-side...somewhere about 85% of the people committing the crimes come from the south-side.... |
So you support freedom but you have to use common sense. Freedom comes with conditions. You shouldn't expect the rest of society to pay for your lifestyle choices. All very reasonable. It's unfortunate though, that you don't extend that same view to cover the gun lifestyle. Personally, if given a choice, I'd rather pay for my neighbor's lifestyle with my wallet than in flesh and bone, but that's me.
Message edited by author 2013-01-09 21:41:22. |
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