Is this hypocrisy? - DPChallenge Forums

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

01/09/2013 08:15:47 AM · #376

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Owning a firearm is a Guaranteed inalienable right (license not required)

wrong, the right to bear arms was given to the people of the US per the 2nd amendment, it however says nothing about what constitutes a "firearm" and second the inalienable rights are given in the Constitution itself, a second amendment wasn't needed to cover those.

i can and has argued that the rights (or interpretation of them) given in the second amendment infringe on the two of the three inalienable rights given by the original constitution.

Great work Mike... Ignore 99% of what he said to cavil over the meaning of the 2nd amendment.

This is exactly why you will remain willfully ignorant. Probably the same reason you still type shit like "i can and has argued" - Probably were too busy caviling with your teacher over the finer points of the definition of "verb"...

ETA: Changing the statement to "one can and has" doesn't really help you, it's still pretty bad engrish.

nice, ignore all of what said and focus entirely on a grammer mistake, clearly you have played the game before.

the second amendment and its meaning is is very important, i dont care if he locks up his guns or if guns arent toys or is very responsible with them, people fighting that gun regulation is an infringement on rights are the reason people who arent responsible with guns can get them easily.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/09/2013 08:45:23 AM · #377

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:
Umm. Really? Do you even KNOW who Timothy McVeigh was? I assure you, his plot didn't fail, nor was he trying to take down the towers of the World Trade Center.

Mike wasn't referring to McVeigh. There was a previous attempt on the WTC with explosives in a vehicle in the underground garage. It failed.

It failed to bring down the building, but I thought there was significant damage and some fatalities(?) ... I think it was in 1993.

As I noted in the "other" thread, the second and third words in the Second Amendment are "well regulated" -- the Founders must have thought "regulation" was pretty important to put it first, and found it part of the necessary justification for the "right" established quite a ways later on ....

FWIW the "Muscle Cars" series of ForeverÂ® Stamps is due to arrive at the Post Office in February.

Spork99

Canon EOS R8

Canon RF 16mm F2.8 STM

01/09/2013 08:56:49 AM · #378

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Cars. Guns. Nuclear weapons.

Which one is primarily designed not to kill people?

Which one kills the most people each year?

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

01/09/2013 09:04:07 AM · #379

One of my favourite Black Ops II weapons is the SMR Assault Rifle.

My attachments are:
1. Target Finder sight, (Identifies enemies and highlights them in red). It makes it easy to quickly find and dispose of campers.
2. Full Metal Jacket, (The FMJ allows your weapons bullets to penetrate thicker surfaces).
3. Grenade Launcher, (Allows you to shoot grenades. It's a useful tool for clearing rooms or objectives).

Venser

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

01/09/2013 09:05:04 AM · #380

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Cars. Guns. Nuclear weapons.

Which one is primarily designed not to kill people?

Which one kills the most people each year?

Red herring. Irrelevant to the discussion about guns.

Mike

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

01/09/2013 09:17:36 AM · #381

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Cars. Guns. Nuclear weapons.

Which one is primarily designed not to kill people?

Which one kills the most people each year?

the most heavily regulated on that list kills no one.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/09/2013 09:24:36 AM · #382

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Cars. Guns. Nuclear weapons.

Which one is primarily designed not to kill people?

Which one kills the most people each year?

Which kills the most people per use? You can only compare car and gun deaths if you take into account how often each is used in a public space, something like deaths/passenger-miles driven compared to deaths/legally-fired rounds.

Also note that while virtually every automobile death is considered "accidental" (even if there is a component of negligence), most gun homocides are intentional.

And you can't use your gun to bring home groceries or drop your kid at day care ...

Message edited by author 2013-01-09 14:26:40.

01/09/2013 09:35:09 AM · #383

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I've got no idea what the numbers are, but I wouldn't be surprised to see cars lose this comparison. A HELL of a lot of rounds are fired every year at shooting ranges and such...

According to the GAO, incidentally (and this is a different topic) as of 2011 US troops had fired 250,000 rounds for each insurgent killed in Iraq and Afghanistan...

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

01/09/2013 09:38:44 AM · #384

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Cars. Guns. Nuclear weapons.

Which one is primarily designed not to kill people?

Which one kills the most people each year?

Which kills the most people per use? You can only compare car and gun deaths if you take into account how often each is used in a public space, something like deaths/passenger-miles driven compared to deaths/legally-fired rounds.

Also note that while virtually every automobile death is considered "accidental" (even if there is a component of negligence), most gun homocides are intentional.

And you can't use your gun to bring home groceries or drop your kid at day care ...

That's right. I believe it was argued earlier that cars aren't needed. They are more needed than a gun. Had SCOTUS not misinterpret the second amendment guns would be viewed today as the luxury they are. We wouldn't have people inventing needs for it in a post wild wild west society.

Message edited by author 2013-01-09 14:44:17.

01/09/2013 09:53:38 AM · #385

Originally posted by yanko:

We wouldn't have people inventing needs for it in a post wild wild west society.

And the "wild, wild West" WASN'T. It's a myth. There was literally stricter gun control in towns in the American West then than there is now.

Tombstone, Arizona:

Message edited by author 2013-01-09 14:57:37.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/09/2013 09:54:33 AM · #386

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Which kills the most people per use? You can only compare car and gun deaths if you take into account how often each is used in a public space, something like deaths/passenger-miles driven compared to deaths/legally-fired rounds.

I've got no idea what the numbers are, but I wouldn't be surprised to see cars lose this comparison. A HELL of a lot of rounds are fired every year at shooting ranges and such...

According to the GAO, incidentally (and this is a different topic) as of 2011 US troops had fired 250,000 rounds for each insurgent killed in Iraq and Afghanistan...

A shooting range is not an area open and accessible to the public as are roadways. If you like, we can exclude auto fatalities which occur in parking lots or driveways.

01/09/2013 09:56:53 AM · #387

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Which kills the most people per use? You can only compare car and gun deaths if you take into account how often each is used in a public space, something like deaths/passenger-miles driven compared to deaths/legally-fired rounds.

I've got no idea what the numbers are, but I wouldn't be surprised to see cars lose this comparison. A HELL of a lot of rounds are fired every year at shooting ranges and such...

According to the GAO, incidentally (and this is a different topic) as of 2011 US troops had fired 250,000 rounds for each insurgent killed in Iraq and Afghanistan...

A shooting range is not an area open and accessible to the public as are roadways. If you like, we can exclude auto fatalities which occur in parking lots or driveways.

Oh, I'm with you all the way on this, I'm just worrying that someone might "misinterpret" those stats.

FourPointX

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

01/09/2013 09:59:10 AM · #388

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

And the "wild, wild West" WASN'T. It's a myth. There was literally stricter gun control in towns in the American West then than there is now.

i found this hard to believe thus looked it up. it's true

Mike

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

01/09/2013 09:59:36 AM · #389

if guns didn't win that comparison I'd be really concerned since any shot fired legally that missed its intended target has a chance to hit an unintended target.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/09/2013 10:03:44 AM · #390

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Oh, I'm with you all the way on this, I'm just worrying that someone might "misinterpret" those stats.

Well, those were just top-of-the-head suggestions for stats ... not that we could easily determine those anyway, since the CDC is prohibited from publishing data on firearms fatalities ... and as for enforcing current laws, the ATF has been without a Director for six years â�� both of these conditions are considered to exist largely as a result of NRA lobbying.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

01/09/2013 10:54:11 AM · #391

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Oh, I'm with you all the way on this, I'm just worrying that someone might "misinterpret" those stats.

Well, those were just top-of-the-head suggestions for stats ... not that we could easily determine those anyway, since the CDC is prohibited from publishing data on firearms fatalities ... and as for enforcing current laws, the ATF has been without a Director for six years â�� both of these conditions are considered to exist largely as a result of NRA lobbying.

I agree with you that the NRA lobbying has helped with the delay in securing a full time director for the ATF but they have had a director. And it is the POTUS responsibility to appoint the Dir. which Obama has not done in either of his terms so far. But the ATF DOES need this.

ATF Acting Director B. Todd Jones - //www.atf.gov/about/executive-staff/

As far as the CDC I am not sure if this is true (I am open to being wrong) because of this: * "Firearmâ��In 2009, 31,347 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18 and 19), accounting for 17.7% of all injury deaths that year. The two major component causes of all firearm injury deaths in 2009 were suicide (59.8%) and homicide (36.7%). Firearm injuries (all intents) decreased 1.9% from 2008 to 2009. The age-adjusted death rate for firearm suicide did not change from 2008, whereas the death rate for firearm homicide decreased 5.0% in 2009 from 2008."

* //www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf

Message edited by author 2013-01-09 15:54:37.

01/09/2013 10:55:51 AM · #392

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Something like 10 billion bullets per year are sold.

Of course, the real thing that's interesting here is the question "What's the real use of nuclear weapons?" is it to kill, or is it to deter? Frankly the same question can, and should, be posed of guns as well. Do people own guns so they can kill people? Or do people own guns in the hope that they can use the threat of force in lieu of actual force?

Me? I own the damned things to intimidate tin cans with, and those SOB's are terrified of me.

As per the accidental vs. intentional deaths - I guess that really does prove that automobiles are more dangerous than guns, since you usually need intent to kill someone with a gun, whereas with the car the threat of death is ever-present, without intent, sometimes even without a driver - 3000lbs of rolling metal is a dangerous thing inherently, especially when it's rolling at over 100mph.

Message edited by author 2013-01-09 15:58:37.

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

01/09/2013 11:00:03 AM · #393

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by yanko:
We wouldn't have people inventing needs for it in a post wild wild west society.

And the "wild, wild West" WASN'T. It's a myth. There was literally stricter gun control in towns in the American West then than there is now.

Tombstone, Arizona:

And yet, strangely, despite the ban - there were still MANY shooting deaths even then.

Proof of the effectiveness of gun bans in America? perhaps.

Venser

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

01/09/2013 11:03:08 AM · #394

Originally posted by Cory:

Proof of the effectiveness of gun bans in America? perhaps.

Care to refute Japan's numbers?

01/09/2013 11:04:40 AM · #395

Originally posted by Cory:

And yet, strangely, despite the ban - there were still MANY shooting deaths even then.

Proof of the effectiveness of gun bans in America? perhaps.

There were NOT. Not in the towns. A bad year was 3 shooting deaths. You were in greater danger of getting shot in BALTIMORE than you were in Tombstone. The "wild west" is a myth created by dime-store novelists. Remember the horrible Billy the Kid? Supposedly shot down 20+ men? The actual count is 3, maybe 4. Pat Garret gunned him down, then hyped up the legend in an attempt to generate book sales for himself.

01/09/2013 11:10:23 AM · #396

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:
And yet, strangely, despite the ban - there were still MANY shooting deaths even then.

Proof of the effectiveness of gun bans in America? perhaps.

There were NOT. Not in the towns. A bad year was 3 shooting deaths. You were in greater danger of getting shot in BALTIMORE than you were in Tombstone. The "wild west" is a myth created by dime-store novelists. Remember the horrible Billy the Kid? Supposedly shot down 20+ men? The actual count is 3, maybe 4. Pat Garret gunned him down, then hyped up the legend in an attempt to generate book sales for himself.

After he shot how many people?

Remember that Lincoln Co. NM is right next to Socorro Co. NM.. ;)

Of course the stories are stories - but the gun bans weren't totally effective, and the sheriff back then knew everyone in town. Bit different today.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

01/09/2013 11:10:45 AM · #397

Now THIS is interesting.

President Barack Obama is exploring using executive orders to help stop mass shootings in America, Vice President Joe Biden said Wednesday..

No need for guns. Or votes. Or congress, or.. freedom.

Just trust the .gov, they'll make sure baby is fine.

Message edited by author 2013-01-09 16:11:16.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

01/09/2013 11:16:13 AM · #398

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Cory:
Proof of the effectiveness of gun bans in America? perhaps.
Care to refute Japan's numbers?

I will not refute them as I don't think it is a valid comparison.

Japan has approx. 700,000 guns registered and unregistered combined.
USA has approx. 270,000,000 guns registered and unregistered combined.

//www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/A-Yearbook/2007/en/Small-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-annexe-3-EN.pdf

01/09/2013 11:18:25 AM · #399

Here's my real final take on this:

The French have a saying "Revenge is a dish best served cold..."

I think legislation is best served the same way.

Laws made directly after tragedies aren't usually well thought out.

As it is, here's a truth - people will often resist any change, unless it's made during a crisis when emotions run high, then there is enough flux to get in whatever changes you want.

You think the American people want gun bans. I think the American people are too emotional to make good decisions right now, and that the government will take advantage of that to enact laws that will serve their needs and desires, not necessarily the needs and desires of those who they supposedly represent.

After 9/11 we accepted laws that were supposed to protect us from terrorist threats - yet these laws and law enforcement tools have been used largely to fight the war on drugs... For an easy to spot trend, just look at how the abilities provided by the Patriot Act have really been used, and ask yourself - what was that REALLY about? Was it really about terrorism? Or was it just a damned clever way to get laws passed that wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise?