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09/14/2011 03:27:13 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There are. And a lot of them tresspass. :) |
"and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,"
I certainly do. I try figure a way not to, but... I sometimes do trespass even where it is marked. I try to do with with respect for the property, and I never sneak around. If someone approaches, walk up to them. If they want to know why you are there, give them a good excuse. If they are angry, apologize and leave, never argue. When I am out in rural areas I often bring along my dog, walking a dog (with a baggie in hand or on the leash) after a long car ride is a great excuse, and most people who run land are suckers for well behaved dogs. Never run, never hide. it's worked for me so far,but as Jason said there is always the risk that you are going to need someone to come bail you out of jail. |
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09/14/2011 03:47:22 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by mike_311:
... just becuase you disallow or deter entrance doesn't resolve you of all risk. |
That's why I've erected an electrified, razorwire fence around my property. It'll mess anybody up before they can get onto my property. |
This thread is useless without pictures. |
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09/14/2011 04:17:20 PM · #28 |
I definitely want to never trespass on anyone's property, for any reason. I respectfully disagree with a few comments here. Just gotta make sure we don't talk ourselves into thinking it's fine to trespass. If someone has a sign up, ESPECIALLY don't go.
This situation I am in is strange. It is like someone owns the property, but no one I've talked to really knows about them or has their contact info. Even the people who supposedly sold the land to them. Again, I think I'll try sending a note to them.
I won't do anything rash. We've already been looking into this for over two years now... |
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09/14/2011 06:35:01 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by ph0t0trip:
I definitely want to never trespass on anyone's property, for any reason. I respectfully disagree with a few comments here. Just gotta make sure we don't talk ourselves into thinking it's fine to trespass. If someone has a sign up, ESPECIALLY don't go.
This situation I am in is strange. It is like someone owns the property, but no one I've talked to really knows about them or has their contact info. Even the people who supposedly sold the land to them. Again, I think I'll try sending a note to them.
I won't do anything rash. We've already been looking into this for over two years now... |
Two years?!? Dude what is on this property that's so awesome to photograph? |
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09/14/2011 06:40:28 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Two years?!? Dude what is on this property that's so awesome to photograph? |
No kidding! I live by you... now I'm interested... |
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09/14/2011 06:51:03 PM · #31 |
Hehe. I shouldn't tell. I'll get you all so curious. Hehe. :)
I should definitely clarify. Two years of looking around, ON AND OFF. It's not like I, every day, am hunting around the state searching for clues about the owner! And no, I haven't set up a surveillance camera at the site. Just some on and off questions to people, land owners, rangers and a trip to the courthouse.
Maybe I'm like a dog, where they say, "they're always on the wrong side of the door", or in my case, the 'fence'. I'm sure almost every photographer has a place in mind they'd like to explore...
The area has some deer, herons, hawks and other wildlife. I think there might be a lake around there too. |
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09/14/2011 07:07:20 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by ph0t0trip:
Hehe. I shouldn't tell. I'll get you all so curious. Hehe. :)
I should definitely clarify. Two years of looking around, ON AND OFF. It's not like I, every day, am hunting around the state searching for clues about the owner! And no, I haven't set up a surveillance camera at the site. Just some on and off questions to people, land owners, rangers and a trip to the courthouse.
Maybe I'm like a dog, where they say, "they're always on the wrong side of the door", or in my case, the 'fence'. I'm sure almost every photographer has a place in mind they'd like to explore...
The area has some deer, herons, hawks and other wildlife. I think there might be a lake around there too. |
Have you looked at the property on Google Earth to see if there is in fact a lake? Well, I think you're doing the right thing trying to find out who owns it to get their permission. Even if it's not as easy as walking up to a door an knocking.
Dave |
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09/14/2011 07:24:53 PM · #33 |
| My motto - "Ask for forgiveness rather than permission." |
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09/14/2011 08:46:45 PM · #34 |
If you want to send them a letter, include a couple of 5X7 or 8X10's of nearby landscapes that you have shot so that they will know that you are not some goofball that just wants to go out there with a $30 point 'n shoot and mess around. You could also make an offer that if they are planning to sell the place, you would allow them to use the photos for their adv.
Another tack that you could take is to write the office and ask who is the local caretaker of the place, and how to contact that person. You could then make that contact, and ask if you could go take photos, or ride with that him or her for an afternoon and shoot pix when they are out there.
If Slippy's address is incorrect, the local county property appraiser's office has info on ownership of everyplace around, and it should be public record stuff.
Message edited by author 2011-09-15 01:05:36.
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09/15/2011 01:47:07 AM · #35 |
Before I started shooting professionally and before I really had a handle on what it meant to be a professional photographer, I was of the "forgiveness vs permission" mindset.
Now that my income depends on my reputation, it's not worth the risk to me to consider trespassing. With the exception of occasionally shooting from the mouth of someone's driveway, if I can't contact the property or building owner, I just let it go.
I'll even go as far as to call the proper authorities (police, sheriffs department, etc) to alert them that I'm shooting in certain situations where I'm either going to generate phone calls or possibly be at risk. For example, when I'm shooting from an interstate overpass - that always generates calls. As to being at risk, I once wanted to photograph someone's Christmas decorations with my tripod on my car roof; the risk came from my needing to park my car on the street with the lights off. By calling ahead, I was able to have a couple police cars nearby for the 10 minutes I needed to get the shot.
For the most part, I've found most people amenable to giving me access; every now and then I'll run across someone who refuses.
I have been curious as to how many images we enjoy would not exist had the photographer not taken the risk to step out of bounds; I've also been curious as to how many images don't exist because the photographer wouldn't take the risk...
All that being said, I can only add, "proceed at your own risk..."
;-) |
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09/15/2011 05:05:13 AM · #36 |
If you are going to walk DEEP into anyones private property, you are taking a serious risk. What if they allow hunters on the property that you don't know about, etc. if the land is adjacent to a state park or the spot you want to be is close to the road, Brennan's advice is better than anything I could ever say- if you really need that shot and can't wait. Here in CT, as I am sure there are in other states, there is a recreational use statute- if you openly allow people to hike, use quads, etc on your land, you are pretty much absolved of all liability statutorily, meaning a lawsuit would be ended early (without unique circumstances)- so the likelihood of litigation is low.
a bit off topic but maybe interesting to some...
It has been a long time since torts class in law school, but what I can tell you is that laws of trespass have been knocked about for hundreds of years, and have very little to do with- or rather, were not crafted by the lawsuits of "sketchy bus-side advertising" lawyers who have a very "wide net" when it comes to potential clients.
We are all familiar with the tall tales of criminals who were successful in bringing lawsuits when their ladder slipped and they fell under the window of a house they were in the middle of burglarizing. The criminal prevailed because the home-owner left a literal pile of shit under the window and the thief's ladder slipped. Outrageous. But the truth is that the law must categorize all visitors a certain way- and assign the reasonableness of the landowner's duty to each visitor accordingly. The earliest trespasser's rights cases involved the famous case of the "spring gun" - a booby trap shot gun set to go off when a door is opened. It is clear, you can't do that- thats recklessly taking the law into your own hands- and for sound reasons you are risking more than just killing a burglar. The truth is- as a homeowner, if you take reasonable steps- signs to stay off, don't have illegal things on your property, and don't let the property "Go" so much as to have dangerous conditions, it would be extremely difficult to get a jury to find in favor of a burglar or home-invader.
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09/15/2011 05:24:38 AM · #37 |
@ B J, That's probably true about the cases of a stubbed toe bringing a big lawsuit being rare. The sad thing is that those cases are the ones that get all the publicity, and have generated a general uneasiness among property owners about letting people just hike or drive around on their lands. Personally, I have access to several thousand acres of "close to native" Florida so for me it's mostly a matter of getting the time to do the shooting. There are a few places though, which have things that I can see from the highway that I would enjoy shooting. If the conditions are just "right" and I know the people who own or patrol the place, I do occasionally slip thru the barbed wire though. Here is one of those shots.
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09/15/2011 05:52:50 AM · #38 |
In Colorado, people are pretty much cooperative with others. There isn't a lot of animosity from landowners towards the public. Almost everyone understands that even though they may own the land, they don't own the wildlife or scenic views. Landowners share readily, as long as those who cross property lines are not engaged in objectionable behavior. Many object to off road vehicles and/or hunting. But, if one is only walking across private property on an infrequent basis, then only rarely are there confrontations. And, if someone objects, then a photographer should simply apologize and vacate the premises promptly.
There is a beaver lodge near me on private property. I did step onto private property to capture this image.  That was last year. This year, the property has been posted "No Trespassing". So, the property owner has clearly communicated this particular property right. And, most of my neighborhood has "No Hunting" signs. In the absence of posted areas, I occasionally walk across private property with respect and care. |
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09/15/2011 06:12:00 AM · #39 |
| I pretty much agree with what Richard says, but I will note that the one person who I've had an angry confrontation with was a real jerk and it wasn't posted anywhere, so there was very little in the way of determining that you had even entered private property off of the national forest land that bordered, which I came from (and yes I know it's my responsibility to know). For the most part, being apologetic, reasonable, and respectful will go a long way in Colorado, but don't forget you're of the age where you'll be typecast as a young punk. |
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09/15/2011 06:18:38 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I pretty much agree with what Richard says, but I will note that the one person who I've had an angry confrontation with was a real jerk and it wasn't posted anywhere, so there was very little in the way of determining that you had even entered private property off of the national forest land that bordered, which I came from (and yes I know it's my responsibility to know). For the most part, being apologetic, reasonable, and respectful will go a long way in Colorado, but don't forget you're of the age where you'll be typecast as a young punk. |
@Waddy- doing it for the art is always worth the risk- and that sunset is great.
I have had times when I stopped at the side of the road to shoot a picture of a large vista, and guys will come up to me in pick up trucks and say- why are you taking pictures of our land and farm? - touchy? or perhaps growing illegal things? got to be careful for touchy maniacs enforcing "privacy" rights they don't have- whether you are a "young punk" in their eyes, or not. |
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09/15/2011 06:35:05 AM · #41 |
I have trespassed and gone places with permission. I am on a year's probation, doing 40 hours of community service, and have spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $6K USD in fines and legal costs for my curiosity and fascination for abandoned buildings. That little foray was completely harmless, but since it was state property I was processed through the system and charged with felony burglary and felony criminal trespass. I no longer go on, or into anybody's land or buildings without permission. My cahrges were reduced to misdemeanors, and my record will be expunged because of a program I was admitted into, as long as I keep my nose clean for the year, but I have been served up a lesson the hard way. Do your research for the owners, and think long and hard before you go somewhere without permission.
Forgiveness can be easier to get than permission, but there's no guarantee you'll get it.
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09/15/2011 06:40:47 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have trespassed and gone places with permission. I am on a year's probation, doing 40 hours of community service, and have spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $6K USD in fines and legal costs for my curiosity and fascination for abandoned buildings. That little foray was completely harmless, but since it was state property I was processed through the system and charged with felony burglary and felony criminal trespass. I no longer go on, or into anybody's land or buildings without permission. My cahrges were reduced to misdemeanors, and my record will be expunged because of a program I was admitted into, as long as I keep my nose clean for the year, but I have been served up a lesson the hard way. Do your research for the owners, and think long and hard before you go somewhere without permission.
Forgiveness can be easier to get than permission, but there's no guarantee you'll get it. |
Damn! :-O
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09/15/2011 06:42:41 AM · #43 |
My family has been in this area for 6 generations, so if someone stops when I am photographing near the road, they usually recognize my truck and ask if I need any help. Most of the land around here has been owned by the same people or companies for many years. That's just the way it is out here in the S Florida back country.
Fortunately for me, they recently opened a large state forest just off the road that I drive in my daily commute. Previously it was all cow pasture, and now there are 20 miles gravel roads to ride and shoot there. It was previously posted, and I had been wanting to get out there and shoot for years.
The one time that I was approached by anyone about my shooting was when I was across the street from an orange juice plant, on public right of way, and on a ten ft ladder. I was shooting across the tops of the trailers full of citrus fruit because I thought that it should be documented. Two weeks later, they just closed up the place at the end of the day, sent everyone home, and it is no longer there. I guess that they thought I had heard something about them planning to close, thought I was shooting for media, and didn't want the story on the news. He just asked me why I was shooting. I told him it was for my own use. He drove back across the road, and that was it.
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09/15/2011 07:53:41 AM · #44 |
| the power ... or risk of photography. wow. There was a challenge here, back in 2003 or so... "freedom" was the topic- so I was driving by a local maximum security prison, proceeded to pull into the parking lot and snap some photos of the razor wire- oh boy- no less than 4 cars full of guards came by and the security captian grilled me and made me delete pictures off my canon G1. Luckily it ended there. Apparently you need permission just to take any picture at all of certain buildings. |
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09/15/2011 08:11:15 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
the power ... or risk of photography. wow. There was a challenge here, back in 2003 or so... "freedom" was the topic- so I was driving by a local maximum security prison, proceeded to pull into the parking lot and snap some photos of the razor wire- oh boy- no less than 4 cars full of guards came by and the security captian grilled me and made me delete pictures off my canon G1. Luckily it ended there. Apparently you need permission just to take any picture at all of certain buildings. |
Someone I knew in photo school wanted to take a picture representing "authority", so he drove down this isolated dirt road to gain a vantage point on the guard towers overlooking the yard at the rear of the max security yard of the prison. He got out, walked about 10m into an open field, pulled out their camera with a 400 or 500mm lens. When he looked at the guards, he realized that he was looking directly down the barrel of one guard's rifle. All the cars with the flashing lights arrive minutes later. After hours of questioning, they told him that had he made one wrong move, he would have been in the morgue. |
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09/15/2011 08:14:32 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
the power ... or risk of photography. wow. There was a challenge here, back in 2003 or so... "freedom" was the topic- so I was driving by a local maximum security prison, proceeded to pull into the parking lot and snap some photos of the razor wire- oh boy- no less than 4 cars full of guards came by and the security captian grilled me and made me delete pictures off my canon G1. Luckily it ended there. Apparently you need permission just to take any picture at all of certain buildings. |
There are some places which are truly off limits during this era of terrorism paranoia. In the Colorado high country, when I take photos of bridges or dams, the activity ALWAYS draws stern and immediate scrutiny from security forces... public and private. I suppose the Homeland Security Department is simply doing their job in protecting structures which could be targets of terrorists. Specifically, I've been challenged for conducting photography activities at the Dillon Reservoir Dam near Frisco, the Oympus Dam near Estes Park, the Shadow Mountain Reservoir Dam near Granby and the Rainbow Bridge near Fort Morgan. I was impressed in each case by how closely these facilities were monitored. It was made clear to me that photographing these places was not allowed. Actually, I was just in the area doing wildlife photography, but a person with a camera near a bridge or dam brings scrutiny. |
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09/15/2011 08:28:59 AM · #47 |
| Yikes. I can understand it, though. There have been a few times when I was taking a photo of something, and a county ranger, state patrol or someone came up to ask what I was doing. In all those instances, I was photographing some bald eagles. It's great they are keeping an eye on things around. Sometimes it is a bit strange to think someone's watching you perhaps wherever you may be! |
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09/15/2011 08:31:27 AM · #48 |
| BTW, hahn23, is there a map of Rocky Mountain that they update regularly telling where you can go off trail (marking restoration ares, wildlife protection closures, etc.)? Are you pretty much free to roam up there to take your shots? |
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09/15/2011 08:58:14 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by ph0t0trip:
BTW, hahn23, is there a map of Rocky Mountain that they update regularly telling where you can go off trail (marking restoration ares, wildlife protection closures, etc.)? Are you pretty much free to roam up there to take your shots? |
It's only in the high use trail areas where there are signs prohibiting shortcutting and advising one stay off restoration areas. Otherwise, it's perfectly okay to hike off trail anywhere, including the tundra. I'd rather see people spread out, as opposed to hiking on a trail. Creating or deepening worn trails represent a big source of erosion.
That said, there are periodic closures of areas to protect seasonal wildlife activity. At this moment, the glacial valleys are closed between 5 PM and 7 AM because of the elk rut. In the Spring, Lumpy Ridge is closed due to Raptor nesting. And, most of the Summer, The Crater near Milner Pass is closed due to bighorn sheep lambing.
Overall, no map online. Just check with RMNP rangers on current closures when you visit the park. Trail Ridge Road was closed last night due to snow and ice above 10,000'. That's why I'm sitting here at the computer this morning. |
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09/15/2011 09:33:45 AM · #50 |
You gettin' all geared up for the fall colors up there? Do you think it will be a good season for the aspens?
It's amazing that you have RMNP as a backyard! I really have enjoyed you're images from up there... |
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