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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> Convince me this is not a composite.
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 01/10/2011 08:12:44 PM · #1
Finalist in a contest I'm entering. I cannot fathom that HDR can save this shot with the sun in the location it is in. No shadows at all coming at us. Am I crazy?

Natural Arch shot
 01/10/2011 09:04:24 PM · #2
Well, the image has definitely been worked to the max, but I'm assuming that HDR from one exposure is okay for this contest (hence your question re: composite of multiple exposures).

At first I thought maybe they used fill flash, but the EXIF clearly says no. I can see where you're coming from here... it almost looks too 'clean' on the near side of the rock to be HDR. Maybe a GIANT gold reflector was used (?). Either that or they spent a LOT of time cleaning up the final HDR image.

Okay - well, that's what I thought, right up until i Googled the Mesa Arch. There must be some interesting light properties there (like a giant rock wall directly behind the camera acting as a relector?). There seems to be a number of captures with decent detail on the rock face...
 01/10/2011 11:35:26 PM · #3
Originally posted by roba:


At first I thought maybe they used fill flash, but the EXIF clearly says no.


At 1.5 sec exposure, flash could have been fired manually
 01/11/2011 12:08:00 AM · #4
or perhaps a battery-powered light source...
shadow-highlight or fill-flash action could also accomplish a lot in combo with layer blending and masking
01/11/2011 12:08:24 AM · #5
To my eye, the suspicious factor is the even light which seems to filter down from directly overhead at the same time the scene shows a sun with crepuscular rays through the arch. It's not from one exposure, as detail would be lost in the shadows everywhere when the sun and bright sky were out there. Probably more than 12 camera stops of light difference. If multiple exposures were allowed, then it's possible HDR blending was used. But, it would have been exposures from different times of day... by maybe 4 hours difference. The acute angle light vis-a-vis the quality of light on terra firma do not match what would appear naturally. HDR with control points can do a lot. That said, I think it's more likely the scene was captured under overcast skies with sun overhead (behind filtering clouds) and no sun rays showing through the arch. Since that would lack the punch of the presented image, the sky was replaced by the "glory" sky from a different time... and maybe a different location. Looking at the edges of the arch where it meets the sky, it looks "replaced" to me. Hopefully, the contest will review the unaltered raw files, as I think it's a composite.
 01/11/2011 12:16:42 AM · #6
Originally posted by h2:
Originally posted by roba:


At first I thought maybe they used fill flash, but the EXIF clearly says no.


At 1.5 sec exposure, flash could have been fired manually


True. If he was a typical strobist using manual non-TTL flashes it wouldn't register at all in the EXIF.

Message edited by author 2011-01-11 05:26:50.
 01/11/2011 01:11:20 AM · #7
I'm not assuming you're questioning the legality of the entry, but suppose you were... does it matter that it was taken in 2009 for the 2010/2011 Landscape challenge?
 01/11/2011 01:16:14 AM · #8
All I see is a good image.
 01/11/2011 01:36:40 AM · #9
For reference.... surprised it wasn't put up earlier...
01/11/2011 01:48:03 AM · #10
The edges of the arch and sky have a black line which to me shows the arch has been manipulated in some way. Normally, a black edge wouldn't show (as seen in the other referenced picture in the original).
 01/11/2011 03:27:34 AM · #11
I've been to that location, and that's just the way the sun hits the arch at sunrise. It's a remarkable place to visit... I don't doubt this shot at all.
 01/11/2011 07:56:01 AM · #12
Originally posted by alanfreed:
I've been to that location, and that's just the way the sun hits the arch at sunrise. It's a remarkable place to visit... I don't doubt this shot at all.


I'm starting to side with Alan here. I googled other examples of the arch and they seem to have similar light qualities at sunrise. What was more amazing to me than the arch itself was the mesas seen in the BG don't seem to cast any shadows, but other shots have a similar appearance.

I think there's still a good chance it's a composite, but it's not guaranteed so I'll give the photographer the benefit of the doubt. Nice shot though if you don't mind the max HDR look.
 01/11/2011 08:35:54 AM · #13
Not necessarily a composite, but I bet it's tonemapped.
 01/11/2011 08:38:01 AM · #14
the small green bushes on the left hand side of the canyon cast no shadow.... as if they were shot mid-day..
 01/11/2011 08:43:41 AM · #15
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I googled other examples of the arch and they seem to have similar light qualities at sunrise. What was more amazing to me than the arch itself was the mesas seen in the BG don't seem to cast any shadows, but other shots have a similar appearance.

I've looked at others as well and you'll see the sun is typically to the far right of the frame, which would naturally expose the massive side of the most prominent mesa. With the location of the sun in this shot (straight ahead; shot at a different time of year?), not to mention its lack of illuminating ability (you can see the rays and where they're hitting), it's simply impossible for the close side of the mesa to be lit like that and with such detail without a massive amount of editing and most likely multiple exposures.
 01/11/2011 09:38:31 AM · #16
just my unknowing two cents, but the sun rays would not act in that manner at sunrise. The would be much longer and lower. Those look like mid-day rays.

Very bad example, not the same place, but sunset in the Grand Canyon literally about 10 minutes before the sun was below the horizon. (I didn't know PS at this time and really should rework this).
You can see how long and flat the rays are and sunrise would be no different.
Now...later in the day around noon...maybe. (Warning: another unrelated and ugly shot)..the rays are downward.


The example posted by spiritualspatula shows morning for sure. Nowhere near the same light.

Message edited by author 2011-01-11 14:40:30.
 01/11/2011 10:23:59 AM · #17
Look at the photographers other images and you will see he does like to use HDR, but his settings on his other photos indicate that there maybe other light sources used. Some of his other work certainly isn't as extreme as this image.
 01/11/2011 12:50:50 PM · #18
The exif data shows that the shot was originally taken at 5am. Since this is a student in Oregon(?) perhaps his camera was on PST making it 6am. Sunrise for that day in the Mountain time region was 430am, assuming that was his location. So it may be reasonable to expect the sun to be that high 1 1/2 hours after sunrise. Also, what is behind the photographer? Could there be a large rock formation there creating a light reflection into the arch?? Who knows...but it is a very nice image.
 01/11/2011 01:49:40 PM · #19
The sun is definitely pretty far above the horizon, and there is significant cloud cover. The result is bound to be somewhat diffuse lighting. I don't believe the lighting is inconsistent with a single shot.
 01/11/2011 02:04:43 PM · #20
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Finalist in a contest I'm entering. I cannot fathom that HDR can save this shot with the sun in the location it is in. No shadows at all coming at us. Am I crazy?

Natural Arch shot


Can't do it Doc. That scene could only be captured on a planet with 3 or more suns.
It's at least pretty powerful HDR, and after hearing Hahns mention of a "glory sky"
I'm leaning in that direction too. The other sample photo someone posted showed the
sun in the sky at that angle in the sky at least 30 to 40 degrees to the west of the
contest photo. Course I could have things bass-akwards. Maybe I transported to New Zealand
while I wasn't looking. :)
 01/11/2011 02:09:06 PM · #21
Originally posted by roba:
There must be some interesting light properties there (like a giant rock wall directly behind the camera acting as a relector?).


Originally posted by kleski:
Could there be a large rock formation there creating a light reflection into the arch??


Since this was asked a couple times, I went through my archives and dug up a shot I took of this arch from further back. There's no giant rock wall right behind the arch... the terrain is rocky, but it's just mostly a dirt path that leads back up to the road:



The sun is simply lighting up the underside of the arch, providing somewhat of an illusion that the light is coming from behind.

I've seen numerous photos of this arch with similar lighting. In fact, when I was in Key West on New Year's, we browsed through the Peter Lik gallery, which features an awesome shot of it. Go here:

//www.peterlik.com/photography/horizontal

And click on the first shot in the second row. This shot was blown up in a massive print at the gallery -- stunning!

Message edited by author 2011-01-11 19:12:14.
 01/11/2011 02:30:18 PM · #22
I got to see that Peter Lik shot live when I was down in Miami Beach for a convention. I thought he had oversaturated that one, although I really enjoyed some of his other stuff.
 01/11/2011 06:08:36 PM · #23
It's not.
 01/11/2011 07:18:01 PM · #24
This place is amazing. It's Mesa Arch near Moab, Utah. The sun hits the rocks and reflects light all over the place for several hours after sunrise.

and

Right on the other side of the arch is a cliff which acts as a reflector throwing light up under the arch. You'll see 10 or more photographers there on a weekend sunrise trying to get the sun and that scene.

01/11/2011 07:23:56 PM · #25
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
This place is amazing. It's Mesa Arch near Moab, Utah. The sun hits the rocks and reflects light all over the place for several hours after sunrise.

and

Right on the other side of the arch is a cliff which acts as a reflector throwing light up under the arch. You'll see 10 or more photographers there on a weekend sunrise trying to get the sun and that scene.


I missed getting a sunrise shot here last time I attended the Redrock GTG. Hopefully this time!
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