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08/03/2008 05:57:32 PM · #251 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
The Bible is a living document and can only be read properly by a believer with interpreting help of the Holy Spirit. |
So who is reading the Word of God "properly"... Jerry Falwell, the Pope, Warren Jeffs, Martin Luther, you? Each could make that claim, and then the others would point out that anything they don't agree with was read from the wrong version, out of context, misinterpreted, yadayadayada... It's interesting that an omniscient deity would leave his Will open to such wide interpretation by imperfect, self-serving humans. Imagine standing in court before a judge who tosses your lawyer's reading of the law aside with the claim that your rights can only be properly understood by a believer with the interpreting help of Thomas Jefferson's ghost. You would only believe the interpretation that happened to agree with whatever way YOU think it should be. |
To my way of thinking 'understanding God' or understanding the 'Bible' are lifelong pursuits. They can't be gleaned from a scholarly approach. Understanding comes from a synergism of experience, prayer, and reading the Bible. Sometimes God will reveal his will quite clearly and other times he leaves it up to us to do the best we can. Each situation we encounter is a new opportunity to learn something about ourselves and God. Reading the Bible is not like reading a law book. It is a spiritual pursuit and involves faith. If you don't have faith then you will never be able to understand it as God intends.Even if you do have faith you may well be at a different stage of spiritual growth and not get the same thing that another gets from it. While there are those who would use the Bible to bolster their own agenda that is not what a true Christian would do. That person would seek God's will and not his own. I hold no illusion that you will be swayed by what I say but that is the way I see it. |
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08/03/2008 06:08:06 PM · #252 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
The Bible is a living document and can only be read properly by a believer with interpreting help of the Holy Spirit. It is the history of God's dealings with mankind and as such it has the same earthly limitations that all ancient history does in terms of scholarship. It is only through diligent study, prayer, and reflection that it's truths can be gleaned. You really can't get much from it unless you have faith. I didn't become a believer because somebody shoved a Bible in my hand. I became a believer because of God's dealings in my life. The Bible helps me to understand God.
To those who believe it is eternal life and for those who don't it is foolishness. |
So basically, we should ignore scholastic study and look "inside ourselves" to find the true meaning for each one of us. I guess that means that just about any belief can be justified by a personal interpretation of select biblical passages.
Isn't this how religious fundamentalists persuade their followers to commit acts of terrorism? Blind faith is easily redirected... |
I would say what you have said is accurate in that yes in order to understand God and the Bible you definitely have to look "inside" yourself to find meaning. You will only find it if you have the Holy Spirit to help and guide you to ultimate truth however. People can justify their beliefs all they want no matter what they are but God judges a man's heart and if that person is disingenuous and does not seek God's will but merely a ratification of his own then that is a misuse of God's word. People who blindly follow religious leaders are not on the right path. The Bible is one of the most misused documents. Of that I have no doubt. That does not change its truth. |
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08/03/2008 06:49:28 PM · #253 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
The Bible is a living document and can only be read properly by a believer with interpreting help of the Holy Spirit. It is the history of God's dealings with mankind and as such it has the same earthly limitations that all ancient history does in terms of scholarship. It is only through diligent study, prayer, and reflection that it's truths can be gleaned. You really can't get much from it unless you have faith. I didn't become a believer because somebody shoved a Bible in my hand. I became a believer because of God's dealings in my life. The Bible helps me to understand God.
To those who believe it is eternal life and for those who don't it is foolishness. |
So basically, we should ignore scholastic study and look "inside ourselves" to find the true meaning for each one of us. I guess that means that just about any belief can be justified by a personal interpretation of select biblical passages.
Isn't this how religious fundamentalists persuade their followers to commit acts of terrorism? Blind faith is easily redirected... |
I would say what you have said is accurate in that yes in order to understand God and the Bible you definitely have to look "inside" yourself to find meaning. |
So if I read the Bible and "look inside myself" and determine some truth, and it disagrees with your interpretation, who decides whose truth is true? |
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08/03/2008 08:22:35 PM · #254 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Reading the Bible is not like reading a law book. It is a spiritual pursuit and involves faith. If you don't have faith then you will never be able to understand it as God intends. |
Let's just think about that for a minute (and nevermind that YOU presume to know what God intends). This is a chicken-and-egg scenario: without the Bible, there is no concept of a Christian God, and yet nobody can understand the Bible unless they already have faith in God. |
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08/03/2008 10:59:47 PM · #255 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
"My mind's made up -- don't confuse me with the facts."
--my dad's interpretation of the "conservative" mantra |
Lol, makes me think of the Colbert Report |
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08/04/2008 10:32:02 AM · #256 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Reading the Bible is not like reading a law book. It is a spiritual pursuit and involves faith. If you don't have faith then you will never be able to understand it as God intends. |
Let's just think about that for a minute (and nevermind that YOU presume to know what God intends). This is a chicken-and-egg scenario: without the Bible, there is no concept of a Christian God, and yet nobody can understand the Bible unless they already have faith in God. |
Even without the Bible God is really pretty capable of calling and speaking to the heart of man. Abraham had no Torah, but heard God's call to leave Haran for a strange land. Moses spoke God's word to Pharaoh...but as yet there was still no written word. There are many other instances. To you it's comletely absurd that God could or should "speak" to a heart, even today, especially when wild-eyed pistol-wavers claim the same thing. "By their fruits you shall know them..." But if this is the God of the universe, nothing is too hard.
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08/04/2008 10:40:29 AM · #257 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Even without the Bible God is really pretty capable of calling and speaking to the heart of man. |
2000 years ago that capability was apparently limited to a few people around Egypt and Israel. If Christianity didn't require the Bible, then there should be more than zero instances of missionaries encountering a new population that already believed. |
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08/04/2008 10:48:26 AM · #258 |
| They did already believe. Just not the 'right' way and with the 'right' beliefs. At least thats what the missionaries told them. |
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08/04/2008 10:59:55 AM · #259 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
They did already believe. Just not the 'right' way and with the 'right' beliefs. At least thats what the missionaries told them. |
True. They believed in very different gods, often more than one. I seriously doubt anyone ever told a missionary that they had already heard the "Good News" or that they had the slightest clue they needed to be "saved" for the sins of being human. |
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08/04/2008 11:26:44 AM · #260 |
I have been reading this thread off and on. I'm a Christian, I believe in God and the Bible. I have faith in Him but I have questions. I know that I will never receive those answers to my questions until I die and go to Heaven. And yes I think I'm going to Heaven because of my belief of God and Jesus Christ.
We here on Earth aren't supposed to have the answers. If we had all the answers to all of life's mysteries, we wouldn't need God but he has made it so that we do. Even if you believe in Him, believe in Allah, Jehovah, or any other spirital being that you have faith in, we will never have the answers.
My take on the Bible is that man interperates (sp) what God has told him. Its kind of like the passing of a secret. You start with 1 person and by the time it gets to the 20 person, its changed. There is still some truth within but God told man what to write, words enter into man's brain and he writes down what he thinks he heard God say. I personally feel we won't know exactly what God intended until we see him once our time here on earth is done.
Like I said before, I have questions. I'm not questioning what God has done, just why did he do it that way. And who is God? It says we are made in His image. So who will greet us when we go to Heaven? St. Peter at the pearly gates....no. I think it will be God as an image of ourself. Like a copy. Who better to relate to you than yourself.
Its all a mystery. Its meant that way. There will be millions of ways to interperet (sp) the Bible. But, I take it for what it is. God's word.
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08/04/2008 11:37:19 AM · #261 |
Yes, the many, many sins of the missionaries. I won't argue for the church or for it's missionaries. Too much power, politics, and corruption.
But...there are missionaries today that merely present the gospel, without canons or clubs, and find that "some" believe. "Some" that have been fed everything but the Bible grasp at the gospel right away when they hear it...the "foolishness of preaching" I think was discussed earlier. And I know this happens, in places where the gospel hasn't been preached in many years.
And isn't there sometimes brought out these parallel "legends" of the flood from other cultures and times, and of a "savior" that is supposed to appear in other religions, and a whole host of other stories, as proof that the Bible can't be true? But apparently some cultures and peoples did hear, at least to some degree.
And lastly - although it's been said already - it's hard to second guess why He's done it one way and not another. We're not quite on the same level intelectually.
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08/04/2008 12:05:39 PM · #262 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dahkota:
They did already believe. Just not the 'right' way and with the 'right' beliefs. At least thats what the missionaries told them. |
True. They believed in very different gods, often more than one. I seriously doubt anyone ever told a missionary that they had already heard the "Good News" or that they had the slightest clue they needed to be "saved" for the sins of being human. |
Actually a lot of the religion that went on in those days was meant to appease the gods, to cover up for shortcomings. Sacrifice was made for sin. Yes, people do have a clue that they need to be "saved". That's the main thrust of religion today, isn't it? To improve, to reach higher, to overcome weakness, to seek favor of one who can help on a higher level than we can achieve on our own? "Some" people do have some notion of "Good News", as you put it.
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08/04/2008 12:08:16 PM · #263 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
You start with 1 person and by the time it gets to the 20 person, its changed. There is still some truth within but God told man what to write, words enter into man's brain and he writes down what he thinks he heard God say. |
How would we know the difference between God telling the first person what to say and the first person simply claiming that God told him what to say? Of all the ways to communicate, doesn't it seem extremely unlikely that an omniscient being would choose to relay instructions through the written word of imperfect humans at a time when over 90% of the population is illiterate, all copies must be translated, interpreted and rewritten from scratch, and distribution is limited? Not to mention allowing all of the originals to be lost and the key advocates to die horrible deaths.
If, as Farfel says, "God is really pretty capable of calling and speaking to the heart of man," then writing should be unnecessary and distant cultures should hold at least similar beliefs throughout history (not just vague references to a flood or some kind of savior in a few cultures). How can humans be intellectually incapable of understanding His intent, and yet know with absolute certainty the intent if His word? You can't have it both ways. |
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08/04/2008 12:16:41 PM · #264 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
You start with 1 person and by the time it gets to the 20 person, its changed. There is still some truth within but God told man what to write, words enter into man's brain and he writes down what he thinks he heard God say. |
How would we know the difference between God telling the first person what to say and the first person simply claiming that God told him what to say? Of all the ways to communicate, doesn't it seem extremely unlikely that an omniscient being would choose to relay instructions through the written word of imperfect humans at a time when over 90% of the population is illiterate, all copies must be translated, interpreted and rewritten from scratch, and distribution is limited? Not to mention allowing all of the originals to be lost and the key advocates to die horrible deaths.
If, as Farfel says, "God is really pretty capable of calling and speaking to the heart of man," then writing should be unnecessary and distant cultures should hold at least similar beliefs throughout history (not just vague references to a flood or some kind of savior in a few cultures). How can humans be intellectually incapable of understanding His intent, and yet know with absolute certainty the intent if His word? You can't have it both ways. |
But see, that's just it, we don't know and we won't know until we meet God in Heaven. I don't question the words of the Bible. My questions are why did He do it this way. No matter what His answers will be, He is telling me himself. Not as if I could go and tell someone else since, well, I would be dead. Its the knowledge that we don't know and aren't supposed to know.
We don't have to understand what His intent was or is, its the belief we have in Him that makes us certain about His intent. Everything happens for a reason. We may not understand but accept it.
Message edited by author 2008-08-04 16:17:33. |
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08/04/2008 12:20:57 PM · #265 |
So, if "god" tells someone to kill and eat babies, that's OK?
If not, how can you say it's not? After all, "god" speaks to each of us and his will is unknowable by you, right? If such a person claimed that "god" told them to commit such atrocities, you'd forgive them? How about if it was your baby?
What if they write it down, claiming that it is the word of "god"? How would you know? Maybe "god" didn't pick you to reveal his word. |
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08/04/2008 12:23:26 PM · #266 |
"For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1Cor 13:12
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08/04/2008 12:26:23 PM · #267 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
That's the main thrust of religion today, isn't it? To improve, to reach higher, to overcome weakness, to seek favor of one who can help on a higher level than we can achieve on our own? |
Of course it's unthinkable that people would naturally want to better themselves and hope for something more. You could make a very compelling argument that the main thrust of religion throughout history has been to take advantage of that natural desire for self-improvement and hope by increasing "our" position relative to "theirs" and to legitimize the authority of those in power- the kings, pharaohs, popes, emperors and priests.
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
But see, that's just it, we don't know and we won't know until we meet God in Heaven. I don't question the words of the Bible. |
Exactly. You don't question the words, which is why you assume you'll meet God in Heaven, as opposed to Odin in Valhalla or Zeus on Olympus, and can overlook teensy little details like no longer having a functioning brain to process any "answers" revealed after you die. All that really matters is that it makes sense to you. |
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08/04/2008 12:26:28 PM · #268 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
So, if "god" tells someone to kill and eat babies, that's OK?
If not, how can you say it's not? After all, "god" speaks to each of us and his will is unknowable by you, right? If such a person claimed that "god" told them to commit such atrocities, you'd forgive them? How about if it was your baby?
What if they write it down, claiming that it is the word of "god"? How would you know? Maybe "god" didn't pick you to reveal his word. |
Don't you know a person by his works? If evil presents itself as good, don't you kinda have some idea?
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08/04/2008 12:33:17 PM · #269 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
So, if "god" tells someone to kill and eat babies, that's OK?
If not, how can you say it's not? After all, "god" speaks to each of us and his will is unknowable by you, right? If such a person claimed that "god" told them to commit such atrocities, you'd forgive them? How about if it was your baby?
What if they write it down, claiming that it is the word of "god"? How would you know? Maybe "god" didn't pick you to reveal his word. |
Don't you know a person by his works? If evil presents itself as good, don't you kinda have some idea? |
It's not about what I know. It's about discerning god's word from other gibberish, which you, among others, claim to know how. Are you saying that god would not do such a thing? Are you then claiming to know the mind of god? But, wait, you can't, because as you and others have already said, that is unknowable. So, again, how would you know that God didn't really tell that person to do such things? |
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08/04/2008 12:49:09 PM · #270 |
Hey, I'm trying real hard to argue nice, here. I've been a little sarcastic and unrealistic in my approach, and I'm really going to try to not do that anymore.
I was with my little family at a Cardinals game a few years ago. We had 2nd deck tickets, way up high. My boy wanted to get there early to get some autographs. He wandered down to the dugout, and got stuck in a big crowd, and being small, he got elbowed out of the way, and didn't succeed at all. About then a couple of his favorites came out from the other end of the dugout, unnoticed by the crowd. I whistled my "Hey" at him. Out of the crowd of 400-500 kids, only one looked up immediately and looked at me. I waved him over to the other end, and he got his treasures.
Yes, I and some others can "discern" between God's word and some "other" gibberish, as you characterise it...same as my son can hear me whistle from a hundred yards away, in a crowd. It's not hard, if you listen, and know what He sounds like. He doesn't sound like "kill!", or "lie", or "steal", or "dominate". He sounds like love, and peace, and understanding, and yes, tolerance.
But to you, that's just voodoo, magic, and sounds like b.s. So why does it matter to you?
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08/04/2008 12:52:42 PM · #271 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
He doesn't sound like "kill!", or "lie", or "steal", or "dominate". He sounds like love, and peace, and understanding, and yes, tolerance. |
It sounds like you haven't read the Bible much. |
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08/04/2008 01:02:53 PM · #272 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by farfel53:
He doesn't sound like "kill!", or "lie", or "steal", or "dominate". He sounds like love, and peace, and understanding, and yes, tolerance. |
It sounds like you haven't read the Bible much. |
I've read it, more than once. I know what it says. I don't understand it all, but I do understand a lot. And I know there are hard teachings. Do you know much about it, or just the parts that you object to?
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08/04/2008 01:29:29 PM · #273 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Originally posted by farfel53:
He doesn't sound like "kill!", or "lie", or "steal", or "dominate". He sounds like love, and peace, and understanding, and yes, tolerance. |
Do you know much about it, or just the parts that you object to? |
I know it quite well... and killing, subservience and "inheriting" the lands of other people per the direct instruction of God are recurring themes. Peace, love and understanding generally applies to "us" after we convert, eradicate or exclude "them." |
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08/04/2008 01:59:59 PM · #274 |
Many are fond of claiming the Bible to be so much "allegory"...and in some instances I believe they may be right. Yes, I believe that occurred. Don't quite understand why, or how that goes together with a loving and caring God. But again, we're not quite on the same intellectual level. I think He even mentioned to one, that it was His business how and where and why He did things, and we really weren't in a position to demand answers.
BUT...if it's supposed to be a lesson to us to let nothing stand in the way of complete fellowship, I do understand. If we're to ruthlessly destroy anything that gets in the way, I do see. "The things which were written before were written for our instruction".
Gotta go. It's been more of a pleasure to discuss without the stress. I know we won't solve anything, but it does stimulate thought a bit.
Peace.
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08/04/2008 02:55:20 PM · #275 |
| My favorite part of the Bible, I think from around the area of Numbers, maybe a little before or after, the command from God to stone any child to death for speaking against or disobeying their parents. That there is some proper parenting. |
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